How Fear and Greed Drive the Arms Race

Ep. 207 (Part 2 of 2) | In this extraordinary, compelling conversation, visionary, activist, and long-time politician, former Governor of California Jerry Brown gets right to the heart of the things that matter most. From truth seeking on an individual level (the importance of inquiring into the depths of our reality), to the challenge of our democracy (getting a consensus in a population that has no coherence), to the problem of leadership (now it’s all about winning, which works on the football field but not for international relations), the fear and greed that drive the arms race (we’re not talking about the arms issue, and to not talk about it is to be complicit), and the existential danger of nuclear war (as important as it is underreported), Jerry nails the essence of our most pressing issues. 

Jerry’s deep concern about the existential threats we face today, such as nuclear war and climate change, is matched by his enthusiasm for life and excitement over the fact that the future is unknowable. “We have to turn,” he says, “and everyone can contribute to amplifying the turn.” We discover some of the key formative events that shaped Jerry’s keenly discerning character, so evident throughout his career and still today in his eighties, and why co-host Roger Walsh describes him as a “force of nature.” This conversation is thoroughly enjoyable, inspirational, eye opening, and disturbing too. “We are on the brink, but no one wants to hear it,” Jerry says. “How do you speak the truth in a way it can be heard?” Recorded August 7, 2025.

“The future is unknown, so don’t conclude that all is dark – or that all is bright! It’s unknown, so as long as we’re breathing and functioning, we have a lot to do.”

Topics & Time Stamps – Part 2

• Waking up with enthusiasm, excitement, and inherent appreciation (01:06)
• What is Jerry engaged in right now? (03:34)
• Roger’s summary of the global issues facing us today (05:50)
• The nuclear danger is as important as it is underreported, and the key to proliferation is fear (07:17)
• The ICBM Caucus (11:38)
• Not talking about the arms issue is to be complicit (13:52)  
• Sitting with the question, what can I do? (16:19)
• Social and political recognition of danger is so very important (18:12)
• We have to turn and everyone can contribute to amplifying the turn (19:01)
• The future is unknowable, so we do what we can (20:05)
• Living in inquiry, the quest for truth (22:44)
• Why was Jerry drawn to work for the good of the environment? (23:47)
• The Jesuit belief in eternal damnation (27:55)
• What you can derive from Zen (30:45)
• Becoming individuators on the developmental path (33:15)
• What does Jerry wish he’d known sooner? (34:49)
• There’s always more to be learned (37:29)

Resources & References – Part 2

• Jerry Brown, Chair of the California-China Climate Institute at UC Berkeley
• Ernest Samuels, Henry Adams
• Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists
• William Hartung & Ben Freeman, The Trillion Dollar War Machine
• Inside the ICBM Lobby: Special Interests or the Public Interest (Quincy Institute for Responsible Statecraft)
• Greta Thunberg, Swedish climate and political activist
• Daniel Ellsberg, political activist, economist, and U.S. military analyst
• Denis Hayes, coordinator of the first Earth Day
• St. Ignatius’ Meditations

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Jerry Brown was born in San Francisco on April 7, 1938. He was elected Trustee for the LA Community College District in 1969, California Secretary of State in 1970, and Governor of California in 1974 and 1978. After his governorship, he lectured and traveled widely, practiced law, served as chair of the California Democratic Party and ran for president. Brown was elected Mayor of Oakland in 1998, California Attorney General in 2006, and Governor again in 2010 and 2014. Brown currently serves as chair of the California-China Climate Institute at UC Berkeley, executive chair of the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, chair of the UC Institute on Global Conflict and Cooperation Advisory Board, on the board of the Council on Criminal Justice, and as chair of the Oakland Military Institute College Preparatory Academy, one of two public charter schools he founded in Oakland more than 20 years ago.

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Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell