What you're pointing to is that Biden might sign an executive order saying that the grounds under the ocean can't be drilled. But the thing about an executive order is that it depends on who's the executive. Trump could come in and essentially roll that back, which is the case for pretty much all executive action. That's right. David, what stands out to you about these last, I guess, two weeks and days of Biden's presidency?

Two things. First, on the executive orders, we've still got a couple that are coming and some that will put, I think, President-elect Trump in something of an interesting bind or at least some interesting choices. There is an order coming on artificial intelligence that would basically restrict to manufacturing in the United States and keeping in the United States the data centers, many of the chips that are used for AI purposes so that China can't use them for military purposes. It's a very nationalistic kind of order. It follows what Biden has been doing with the semiconductor industry since the start. And it would make President Trump, once he's in office, have to choose between his tech supporters, including the Elon Musk crowd, who want the greatest ability to conduct AI work all around the world. Fascinating. And the MAGA group that would say, let's do this here in the United States. And I think he might stick with that one. So

you're saying if Biden can't protect everything he's done, what he can do is drive a wedge between Trump and his supporters. That's right. And leave him in a pretty tough spot.

That's right. And between these emerging groups, the tech supporters versus the older line sort of nationalistic MAGA supporters. On your broader question, you know, what's been remarkable, I think, to all of us has been the degree to which President Biden has seeded the spotlight. We've now seen Trump do two major press conferences. I don't believe there's been a full press conference with President Biden since the NATO summit last summer,

just before he dropped out of the race. David, I traveled with him to Latin America and Angola, and he answered two shouted questions during both of those trips. Answered two shouted questions, you know. And

this is the old trope. Journalists really like it when their presidents hold news conferences, but I'm hearing you all say this is not just journalistic bellyaching about access to the president. This is about what seems like either a conscious or unconscious decision by the president to not hold the office in the fullest way possible publicly as he could at the end of his presidency.

That's right. And he did one interview with USA Today. You know where

I'm going, David.

You know, in that, I'll be interested to see what Zolan and Maggie thought. I didn't think that he used the moment to sort of put his presidency in the scale of history. Well,

let's talk about what he did do in that interview. I mean, the elements of the interview with USA Today that ultimately seemed to break through were the fact that Biden, among other things, is considering issuing preemptive pardons that would protect potential targets of a criminal investigation by the incoming Trump administration. We've talked so much on the show about a Trump DOJ's pretty much open commitment to going after certain of his rivals and enemies. It was interesting that Biden came out and said, I am thinking about doing this. Do we know who might be at the top of that list for preemptive pardons? And do they want them? Because getting a preemptive pardon from the president suggests that you might have done something wrong.

Yeah, this has been a huge subject within the White House and on Capitol Hill. And it really did, as I understand it, originate from Capitol Hill. There are a lot of members of Congress who are concerned that the way he often frames it is this person should be investigated. Now, I just want to point out, because Trump's people often do, he told me at the press, you know, that he wasn't going to direct the DOJ on what to do. And maybe that will be true, maybe it won't be true, but it almost doesn't need to be true because they know what he wants. Right. And they know what he'd like to see done. So these folks are worried about being targeted for trying to hold Trump accountable for things like trying to stay in office after losing an election or... Here talking about Liz Cheney. Liz Cheney, for instance, or Benny Thompson, who co-chaired the J6 committee with her, or Anthony Fauci, who is a top infectious diseases official in government for decades. Including during the Trump administration. And incurred a lot of anger for his coronavirus era recommendations. People can take issue with some of the recommendations without suggesting he somehow committed a crime. And that's where that leap goes. But if you accept a pardon, you are acknowledging some level of wrongdoing. And these folks generally don't believe they did anything wrong, number one. Number two, the challenge for the Biden White House

is where is the line? Where do you stop? Biden also made a fascinating admission in this conversation with USA Today. And it was this. Although he believes he could have beaten Trump had he stayed in the race, which we'll never really know the answer to, he said he's unsure He acknowledged an uncertainty that he would have made it through a second term.

That's a big thing to acknowledge, Zolan. I thought that was his most clear acknowledgement of what many Democrats had been fearing. You know, one thing I would often hear is it's not necessarily that he's 82 years old. It's what happens when he's 86, what happens at the end of a second term, and does he have the ability to fully carry out that service? And here you saw him acknowledging that concern as well. I also think he was speaking to, we've been reporting a lot on just Biden's sort of mood and his mindset in these final months. And there's been frustration. He does believe that he had the ability to beat Trump if he had stayed at the top of the ticket. He's also very reflective right now. And I think the USA Today interview, you know, showed that he's in this period where he's reflecting on his long career, but also thinking about what could have been if he hadn't dropped out. But to be clear, I mean, most polling does, you know, throw doubt on the fact that he had the ability to beat Trump. Can

I just make one point real quick, Michael, in terms of what Zolan is saying? He is reflecting, but he's reflecting on what he believes he was denied. He's not reflecting on mistakes that he made or how the White House handled questions about his age or the fact that large numbers of reporters were attacked on social media and elsewhere for raising questions that were taking place in front of their eyes. Right, about his age and ability. And to deliver the statement of, yes, I could have won, but who knows if I can't say for sure if

I could have served the whole four years. That's a pretty astonishing statement. David, is that an admission of irresponsibility on Biden's part? You've covered this presidency for its entirety. To suggest that you might not be able to fulfill the obligations of President of the United States, Commander-in for a full term, but that you were determined to do it anyway. It borders on

raising serious questions about judgment. It sure does, Michael, because it raises the question, when, Mr. President, did you come to that conclusion? Right. Before or after you

decided not to run.

Right. At that last press conference that I mentioned, the NATO press conference, I asked him whether or not he thought that he could take on a sit-down meeting with Putin or Xi in two or three years. And he basically said, It absolutely, that was July, okay, that he definitely could go do that. And what are we hearing from him now? Well, no one can predict what I'm going to be like when I'm approaching 86. Well, that's true of everybody, you know, in that age group, right? And I hope that all of us in this conversation get to the point where we have to go make that decision

ourselves. But I'd love to know when he came to this conclusion. David, this does remind me that you are basically the Forrest Gump of presidential news conferences. Totally true. Which news conference did you not ask the question? That's totally true. I want to end, my friends, on a scene that has just played out. A somber one in Washington at the National Cathedral. Biden was there, so was Donald Trump. And all of our living former presidents, this was the funeral, of course, of former President Jimmy Carter. I'm curious what stood out to all of you about the ceremony. I know you're busy. You might not have been able to watch the funeral in its entirety, but there were several moments that I think a number of our colleagues are seizing on for their symbolism and their significance.

I didn't get to hear most of the eulogies, Michael. but from what I saw visually, what was striking was Mike Pence sitting almost directly behind Donald Trump, and they shook hands at one point. I don't think they have seen each other in person since they left office.

January 6th might have spelled Mike Pence's death at the hands of people rioting in the name of Donald Trump. He rose

to shake Trump's hand, and Trump has since said, well, those people were angry, you know, the mob at the Capitol of his supporters in explaining, somewhat justifying why they would be saying such things. The other thing that really struck me was just this, what looked like moments of levity, I don't know if it was pretend or not, between President Obama and President Trump, who were sitting next to each

other. I noticed those as well. You

know, these are two men who, the one who was about to be president for a second time, rose to prominence in the Republican Party by questioning the legitimacy of the former president. Was he American? Was he born in the United States? Right. Was he truly born in the U.S.? It was really striking, especially because Obama was quite pointed about Donald Trump during this last campaign in a way that he generally hadn't been. We're going to slide in and out of sort of Washington routine and normalcy at certain points. And then there's going to be how Trump does things that is not how things have usually been done. And today was just a stark reminder of that.

That was the most striking thing for me, Maggie, is just seeing not just Obama, but also Biden, and really all of these leaders sitting together, you know, in a way you have a collision of institutionalists and traditionalists facing somebody that for years they have called a threat to democracy, and who many of their also supporters believe is a threat to democracy. But now you're in this period where your commitment to the institution rises above its seams.

Exactly. David, I want to end with a clip of President Biden's eulogy to Jimmy Carter. I think by the time we're done playing it, you'll understand why I chose it. Let me just play it for you. You know, we have an obligation to give hate no safe harbor. And

to stand up to what my dad just said is the greatest sin of all, the abuse of power. Was that what I think it was? Oh, yeah, that was exactly what you thought it was. Just translate that. You know, so the eulogy was about Jimmy Carter, but it was about Jimmy Carter as the anti-Trump. And I think that is what Biden truly believes. And so you had this odd duality as I was watching it. And it struck me, Michael, not to follow your Forrest Gump comparisons for too long because I'm not sure I really like that one very much. But these are the five presidents I've covered. And these were five remarkably different people. But four of them worked within the institutions, even though we had our doubts at various moments during the Iraq war about George W. Bush. And one of them has celebrated living outside the institution. And one way you could look at the five people who were standing there was to say, this moment too shall pass. We've had good presidents, bad presidents, presidents who broke laws, presidents who didn't break laws. I'm sure a lot of people looked at this and looked at Bill Clinton and said, here is an impeached president standing here. And there was one at the other end of the bench as well. But the other way to go look at it is that that eulogy basically was a warning that while we have made it through each one of these five presidencies represented on those benches and Jimmy Carter's, that there remains a threat to the institution. And I think that's what Biden was saying without ever, of course, uttering Donald Trump's name.