Evolving Norms of Privacy in Public Showers

Join Simone and Chance as they delve into the surprising history of sexual norms from the 1920s to the 1950s. They analyze how societal standards have shifted, particularly in terms of public nudity, mutual masturbation among men, and the transition from nudist cultures to more private norms today. The discussion includes various practices such as key parties, public porn viewing, and even sexual behaviors involving animals. Chance and Simone also touch on contemporary issues, such as the impact of the legalization of gay marriage on today's DEI and trans right movements, and how modern technology and societal changes have influenced our views on sex and nudity.

Hello Simone. I'm excited to be here with you today. Today we are gonna be talking about the way that our society used to be. And I don't mean like in Roman or ancient Greece. I'm talking 1950s, 1920s. Much more debauched than it is today. Oh, the areas where sexual norms are tightening rather than loosening.

And we're gonna try to build a model to understand in which areas does sexual norms seem to loosen over time, and in which areas does sexual norms seem to tighten over time? So just to throw you guys in the deep end here, if you're like, wow. Come on. Things couldn't have been that much more sexually loose in like the 1950s.

Well, around that time period, and we'll get to the specifics later in this, around 40% of young men participated in mutual masturbation with other young men. This was normal. If you have four grandparents you're dealing with. What? Like that. Oh, why did you to take it there, chance? One of them did this

given that all of you have four great-grandfathers, that means there is an 87% chance that one of your great-grandfathers participated in something like this.

I am gay.

In today's society, basically, no guy does this.

This is like, no, only for gay guys. Okay.

I don't even know if it's for gay guys. I don't know, man. Well,

and this is something of you're like, wait. Is this continuing to happen? It happened to me when I was going through with an AI asking like, where has sexual norms tightened? Yeah. And it's like, well, of course, a long time ago they used to have public showers in schools for the boys and the girls.

And now it's all private stalls. And I totally

remember in my high school gym, there were, I remember this too. I was like, what? Yeah, they got rid of that. Well, I, we never, one, we all changed for gym class, but we didn't show each other. Like we didn't, we changed very carefully and there were showers and I always wondered why, because we never No, no, no,

no.

I remember when they had that in my school, they had that in every school I ever attended. I never once used a public shower despite it being in every school I ever attended. And the somebody could be like, wait. What it's like because they were already, these norms were already changing within our generation that I knew it was weird to be naked around other boys my age.

And I didn't want to do that even though the facilities were still structured that way. And a lot of the schools that are doing these changes now are saying, well, if we leave them the old ways, no one will use them. Right. And that's

fair because no one used them at my school. It was wasted space.

Yeah. No one used them at my school anymore.

They were from like a previous era where and I've seen shows like apparently this was the thing that happened at one point in human history. And I think that if you were on like maybe the football team or something, there might have been some norms around using them. Like if you got like really sweaty and gross in whatever sport you were doing.

Maybe they used public showers, but even then, I can't imagine they used them in the girls' rooms. Had you, had you ever seen a group of girls using the public showers at the same time?

So on swim team, we did all use the shower, but we never took our clothes off. We showered in our swimsuits.

Oh, fascinating.

Yeah. And that's why it's,

it's really weird with that one. Like there are stories of that one trans swimmer just having their junk out in the women's locker room. The locker room. Yeah. That's 'cause dude, like we didn't even have our tits out in the, in the locker room. Like it was just the most you'd ever seen was the most you'd ever see out there.

Or the what? Lindsay? Lindsay Thomas, right?

Leah Thomas.

Leah Thomas. There we go. Yeah. Yeah. So

this individual for people don't know this trans swimmer, they didn't have bottom surgery when they were doing all this. They were flashing underage girls in, in a swim swimming locker. Yeah. But

also like, at least where I went to school in California, which is pretty progressive, no one in the girls locker room ever took off their clothes.

Right. But, but the point, so even in camp, when we were in camp together, all this like, you know, there's all these like eighties. Movies of one, like locker rooms and like, oh gosh, look, her body's so perfect. But also like, men looking at sleepovers that teenage women were having as they were taking off their clothes and changing for bed and oh my God, look at like how hot they're no, the, like, if I saw someone else changing clothes and I did exactly the same thing, you would change under a sweatshirt period.

I, I've never seen a, a peer put on a bra, for example, I've seen a, a peer put on a bra under a sweatshirt like a hundred times and I've done it myself a hundred. But like that's,

I don't know. I, this, this is, this is fascinating. Why are these social norms becoming more conservative in regards to, to, yeah, I guess when you, yeah, when

you think about it.

Yeah. I didn't think about the fact that these eighties movies I watched had all these naked teens and that I. Would never think of exposing myself in front of my peers. No, I would, I would be

so weird. I remember, yeah. I went to my dad and, we'll, we'll talk about these, these, these naked sweat lodges and stuff like that, that used to be common.

I went to my dad with one of the, I was like, this is weird. Like, you know, I, I don't care that this is like what men do. Like this is weird. And a lot of these institutions just aren't as big as they used to be. But it's not just that, that's not the only area. Another big one. What actually inspired this was a Keisha piece.

This is the, the v tuber who went through this cancellation recently. So I went through a lot of her backlog and one of the episodes I found particularly interesting was on how normalized having sex with donkeys is in the cartia region of Columbia. Like, wait, okay,

who's having sex with, or the donkeys having sex with each other or a human?

Men. Men typically considered that your first sexual partner is a donkey.

Aw. But are you gonna like pick up. Diseases from that.

Apparently all the women don't care, but most women in the region, I would worry,

I would worry, I'd get like some kind of bacterial illness if my husband man, like, I don't care at all that you slept with a lot of women before we married.

But if I'd known that you had stuck your dick in a donkey,

I would have trouble. This is, this is what Colombian women deal with in, in, do they know? Do they know that rare, like know a lot of people were like, this is normalized within our country. What's wrong here? You are destroyed.

This community believed that males would not achieve competence in marriage unless they practice intercourse with a donkey.

The coastal region of Columbia has been known for males making love to donkeys, but I expected this topic to be taboo. Hearing people talking about it so openly and with no shame.

Well, what? They're not learning how

to pleasure a woman.

Like I, I could get it. And I think that like there's some tropes that like, okay, well men should have some kind of sexual encounter before they, you know, have sex with their girlfriend or their wife so that they know how to please a woman and don't like embarrass themselves or like come too quickly.

But this is different. Because they're not learning how to pleasure adopting

about this was, well, look, I can see, look, a lot of regions have gotten that Are rural regions like Wales have gotten this stereotype in the past. It was the common thing about whale. Oh, okay. So what,

what, first you were saying this was what Co Colombian, and now you're saying it's Wales,

but in Columbia it's, it it up until modern times like video cameras being able to go in, it's like, oh, this is a guy who rinse out his donkey.

This is a regular thing in our community. Whales stopped doing this probably about, I don't know, three years ago. Sorry. I'm joking. I'm joking. I'm joking. You're joking. I think about 80 or years ago, or 50 years ago. It probably stopped in Wales. But you know, I'm having some fun with our whale shot audience here.

But you know, and, and you, and this was not just in these countries, it's also in the United States. So this is one of the only paraphilias or fetishes that has decreased in for, in, in commonality within the United States every time. Is this,

I don't know though, because I feel like there's this underground.

Tendency of people to,

we have to fix on this. Like, okay, so if I quote from our book, okay. Kenzie's study back in 1948, this is a mtus guide to sexuality, but who wants to read this? So in 1948 found that 8% of men and 3% of women had had sex with an animal. But with time, these numbers have dropped, was more recent studies showing them to be around 5% and 2% respectively, likely a product of lower access to animals in a more urban society.

Mm-hmm. These numbers are fascinating when contrasted with our survey results, which suggest that only 6% of males and 2% of females are aroused by the idea idea of sex with an animal. If this data is accurate, this indicates that 87% of people who are aroused by the idea of sex with an animal have tried it.

Now, so a few notes here, it used to be almost 10%, so almost one in 10 men in the United States in 1948 had sex with an animal at some point in their life. Okay.

That's a lot. Yeah. Part of what I worry about though, just from like stuff I've seen around on the internet is that a lot of women are intimate with their dogs, but they're

like, it doesn't count.

Well, that's decreased. It's gone from 3% to 2%. No, no, it does happen. So, most zooa files who are intimate, I don't think they, no,

I don't think they identify as zoo files. It's just something that happens to them sometimes.

That's. Well, okay. But it's usually, because remember

we went down this whole rabbit hole where you were like, you know, there's these people who are into dolphins.

And I'm like, no, they're not. You're like, yes, they are. Look it up. And then somehow we ended up on people into dogs. And I discovered this whole,

I mean, this is long lectures on like the, the, the operational logistics of how this is carried out in modern society. Yeah. As

detailed in this case that the rabbit hole we fell down was by an Italian dog breeder by trade.

But like she revealed this was a bigger community than I thought.

So I, I don't know, maybe I'm still, this was like a, this was like a big part. It sounded like this was as big a part of her life as like, polyamory is for polyamorous people. Oh, no.

Like 100%. This woman was thoughtful. I don't know how I found her through a, a dolphin affinity.

It was, it was a fascinating, because we were at a wedding and we were listening to this like

a long drive on Texas back roads and in her broken English. Anyway. I don't know. I feel like, I think, and this is something that, that I, I, I always hesitate with when it comes to women in sex research is. They're like, it's not porn.

It's a, it's romantic, you know? But no, sweetie, it's,

yeah. Yeah. So, no, but the, the point I'm making here is that this is another category where even within the United States sexual mores were much, much, much looser historically. That's interesting. And so the, you know, we're getting a few categories here.

Bestiality is one where, where it's become a lot stricter and public nudity is one where it's become a lot stricter. Mm-hmm. The, the interesting thing about the bestiality one is if you go to the Kirsha show, she talks a lot about, like, Tijuana Donkey shows this idea that like, wait, okay, so they didn't just.

Used the donkeys, they watched other people using the donkeys.

Well, Tijuana donkey shows appear to be a myth. They, they, they are not, oh, thank God, recorded until the 1970s. Okay. And if they existed, they might have been a faked thing to sort of, get drunk tourists excited. Well, because it

sounds like something that would happen at a de botched Roman Empire collapse party, if you know what I mean.

Right. But, but I'm pointing. People will report having been to them. Some, there's some stories of like some former, but there's really no hard recording that this was ever a thing. And if it was as common as people like today, pretend it was we should have some record of it. Especially given the extensive records we have of this happening in Columbia.

You know, so why isn't this recorded anywhere in Mexico? So, that appears to be a myth. Which but people in comic on ki were like, well, my grandmother told me about going to one of these. So, you know, maybe given the comment again, one in 10 men in the 1940s hadn't done it was an animal.

Right.

I think. Yeah. But I do think a big part of this though was like animal availability. I bet that if men had the same rate of exposure to animals. Now

y actually that's a good point. Yeah. Men do not have as much exposure to animals they would like having sex with today as women do. I don't,

yes, that I don't know if they would like, like having sex with, if it's a, if it's a wet, warm hole

and it's there.

Well, I don't think that men are like, interested in dogs in the same way they're interested in something like horses or sheep that are like, yeah, well no dog.

Yeah, no D dogs. We'll, just if we, or if we're talking about morphology and like what you as a man or woman would want to use to pleasure yourself.

Women obviously shouldn't go for donkeys and horses. But dogs. And as this woman in her detailed analysis that the Italian dog breeder who really liked intimate relations with dogs pointed out that there are specific breeds whose special parts matched the size of human special parts. So she went for that.

So like women, I could see even when it comes to like not just dogs going down on a woman, but like dogs doing more than that. Like they make sense. Whereas dogs, sheep. Like, it, like larger animals don't make sense, but a larger animal from a man's perspective, even considering their height are kind of perfect.

Yeah. Which is why, why I think that this went down much more for men than women, as you saw with the statistics. Exactly. Yeah. 'cause

dogs are, I mean, even now, it's like fur babies, like they're, they're pervasive in households and especially households where women are alone and they're not being watched and they're, the thing that really

shocked me is that, is that you know, 80, 87% of people with this kink have tried it.

And I guess it's just because it's so hard to police or, or do anything about. Right. Yeah.

Who's gonna, well, and that's the thing who's

gonna

know

well? And, and 72%, oh God, if dogs suddenly get some

AI ability to talk.

Oh, that's not gonna be fun for these people.

All the pet owners gonna be like, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

White, white progressive women letting know. Yeah. So, 72% in one study responded to not seeing anything wrong with this. This is today and 80% claim. They believed the animals had offered consent. So this is the, just, just so you know, people who engage with it, why the engagement rate is so high because they just don't see anything wrong with it.

And like, I can make all the consent arguments I want, but like, I eat veal sometimes, you know? So like the, the, the point I'm making is that our society has an awful lot of concern for the consent of an animal when somebody wants to f it, but not a lot when we're torturing, if people don't know what veal is, it's, it's basically tortured baby cow.

You see with veal, the whole key is keeping the cow's chain so they can't walk around or kidney exercise that way their muscle tissue stays soft wait a minute. Veal is little baby cows hipper. Then why the hell did they call it veal? Well, if we called it little baby cow, people might not eat it.

Yeah, I wouldn't have Me neither. Oh man. Look at that one. It looks delicious. What? Succulent and juicy. Can we have a free sample of these two?

You know, not, not a lot when we are factory farming it, and I think that's a little hypocritical. That is,

yeah. Yeah. I think if you could ask an animal what they would prefer to be veal or to be someone's special times partner, I mean, I know what I would choose.

Yeah. No, I mean, absolutely. If, if humans get enslaved by aliens, yeah.

I'll be, I'll be the other one. I genuinely hope that it is weird alien Kirks where they're like, I wanted to go out in space and screw green chicks. They're like, I want to go out in space and screw white chicks. Yeah. Instead of like,

you know, force speed and then eat them.

They'll choose the other one.

Yeah.

Alright. So, so when we was talking about the Columbia thing Gabrielle Garcia Martinez works like a hundred years of solitude, allude to such practices in rural settings. So this is a famous Colombian poet yeah, I read his work in Spanish class. That's crazy. Yeah. So he talks about doing this.

Ooh. So that's how common it is. He has a Nobel Prize, by the way, I think in like literature. Ah huh. I mean, he's covering the truth. That's the truth. That's fine. In the US remember I talked about that mutual masturbation thing used to be common? Who talked about that? You were telling me earlier today Who?

Yeah. Kanye

West talking about Kanye West childhood experiences with young, young someone, young person his age yeah. That were, would be considered vastly inappropriate now. And he's out there not only talking about it publicly, but referencing it in songs. So

here's another fun one. Stag parties.

Have you heard of these? These are part, aren't these bachelor parties? . They're a, a form of male only parties that were common from the 1910s to the 1950s. Okay. In which a group of men would watch pornographic films together. What and 1950s projectionists recalled them as being a rite of passage at bachelor parties as well, so, okay, that's

what I thought.

Bachelor parties.

Yeah. Well there there's also a thing at bachelor parties, so there was a thing where you would hire strippers to come to your, this would like never happen today, the idea, but still

happens in movies. I don't know if it happens today or not. No,

no, no. I did research to see if, if there's any, if people are still doing it, this is still a thing that happens.

And I mean, just think about it, like, why would I cheat on my wife the day before I'm getting married? This requires like a dramatically different. Concept of marriage than the one we have in our society. I'm about to spend the rest of my life with someone I deeply care about. And so the last thing I wanna do is sleep with somebody else.

Like every, everyone involved in that should be like taking you aside and being like, dude, if you want to like see a bunch of like naked people right before you, yeah. You should

probably rethink this, this thing, this

doesn't. No. But historically wives really were seen as like this ball and chain or like this idea of like, your life is restricted now.

You're giving something up. You are enslaving yourself to your duty, to humanity. Right. And that's not, that's not why people get married anymore. Yeah, yeah. No, nobody does that. Nobody does that. And so like who, like, okay, think the cultural groups who get married today, like who is going to do like strippers at a bachelor party?

You've got your, I think it's more

that your jerk friend, guy friend does it. Because he's, you know, the hosting it typically you don't have friends like that anymore. No, but I, well, I don't know. I mean, no, there are definitely different cultural groups in the US where you know, especially resentful guy friends might, you know, bring in that just 'cause they, they're resentful that their friend is being lost to them by some woman they think is wrong for their friend.

I don't, I mean, I just, I could see it, I could see it happening. I can see it, but, but also, I don't know how easy it is to even hire strippers anymore,

but, but I, yeah. Right. But the idea as well, I'm actually gonna gonna see stripper, like a bunch of men getting together and watching a pornographic film at the same time today.

That would never happen. That is well against the sexual morays of our society today. Totally. Next one.

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Okay. I mean, it's, you can have a firefighter, police or, or veteran. They seem for women.

This doesn't seem like actual nudity.

No. Let me, testimonials and reviews. Do you have a Google review? No. They're showing women. Yeah, that's weird. Poconos Bachelor party strippers. I,

I was asking AI if this is common now.

So apparently it's not common, but it still exists somewhere

that the business, this is a, this is a, these are production stag party. Female strippers. Stag parties still exist. That's wild. Yeah. Offers the hottest female strippers and entertainers for fun. Stag parties. Custom eye. Customize your stag party for a memorable Oh, bad girl.

Bad girl. Number one right here. Whoa. Yeah. This, this could have been your experience, Malcolm.

I admit that she looks like she's made of AI

and look at how much fun they're having with their solo cups and EZs

that

doesn't see

that look fun at all. That looks miserable. I do not want to watch some other naked women.

I can see naked women on the internet. I don't need to fight them over to my house. But no, Simone. So next, next crazy thing that used to happen, okay. Burlesque shows, which I'm sure many people are.

Oh yeah. Vita V, or sorry, Dita Vti. Like familiar with from the

1920s to 1950s.

Yeah.

And they're still, no, when we were in Vegas, d Dees had an active show in the hotel where we were staying.

Yeah. But they, they don't like actually strip anymore. As far as I know. Two wear pasties. Oh, she does. Yeah. But, but it's, I mean, I

think it's more about the aesthetic. It's more like watching, well, I go to a

burlesque show today. I think I'm reliving a 1920s experience. I don't, yeah, no, I think

people, you're there to be like, oh, let me put on my smoking jacket costume and do this for fun.

I don't think people are like, excited by it.

Yeah. Well, you also have things like what is it like go-go dancers and stuff like that. What a lot of people don't know about go-go dancers. One of your

friends did go-go

dancing two years ago, right? For fun. But go-go dancing is like a, a way to be like classy.

I love if like women now are like learning go-go dancing. So, go-go dancing. Historically they wouldn't wear underwear. It was like the reason they do the big foot movements and everything. Like

no. You're think Mel No, no, no. You're thinking of the CanCan. Can, can, that's what I'm thinking. Not, yeah. So no, this is the, the, the CanCan.

Yeah. That, that's back in like we're talking like turn of the century. Moulin Rouge in Paris. The, the CanCan is the dress where the women pull up their skirts and, and, and do and move their legs in unison. The reason why this was delicious was flashing something was because they were wearing split drawers.

And split drawers means that they're wearing tantalum with an open. You can see their private parts when they're dress flips up and they're of course they're flipping their legs up so you can see everything Go, go Dancing is more of a dude. Looking hot thing, but I think it's

also maybe now more of a like, sorry, I'm not familiar with my historical dances.

I'm trying to do part of this from memory. Go, go. What? No, hold on there. There's, there's other crazy things that they did in the past. So when I, I dug a lot into

Go, go dancer just entertain crowns at, at nightclubs. But it's, it's not, I don't think it's, it's, it's like, it's not intentionally, it's not like a strip.

They're just wearing very small pants. As a men or woman.

Well, here's, here's a fun one. The people don't dunno about. They can be like, well, you know, in the past they weren't as debauched as they are today. Okay. They certainly didn't have anything like rural 34. Except we have things called Tilian MacBooks or Tijuana Bibles.

Yeah. That were common from the 1920s to the 1950s. And you could buy in barber shops. And these would have things like Popeye having sex, or Mickey and Minnie Mouse having sex. Even back then. They include themes of BDSM or other sort of like subversive humorous themes. And, and at their height there was about a thousand different titles in active publication at a time.

So this was very big, like maybe as big as the comic industry is today, given how much it's declined due to its wokeness. Like, wow. So, well even in the

past, like people would like, a lot of the pol, like political cartoons were probably not even political cartoons. They were just. People drawing known figure.

No, no, no. So one figure, for

example, a great one that came out, this was, this was during the World War ii was a gay one where it was Stalin having sex with Hitler. Aw. So no, they did, they did all so's o tp. Yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah. You could, you could buy your book of, of, of Sta effing Hitler in the 19, in the 1950s or forties barber shop just be like, Hey, I want my in a barber shop.

That's where they sold them out of. Yeah. Well, you could think of 'em as like community centers of the time period where people would go. Okay. Now let's discuss key parties. Have you ever heard of key parties?

Okay. I think I've seen in some like teen drama soapy show, some kind of secret society where you get invited and go to some house and everyone's wearing.

Masks that don't actually cover their faces and having sex? Is that that or no?

No. Okay. Key parties was something that was popular from the 1950 to the 1970s. Okay. In the United States swinger culture in which everyone would go to a party and they would put their keys in a bowl, and you would go at, when you were leaving, grab the keys from one of the opposite gender bowls, and then sleep with whoever keys you grabbed, you'd be going back to their house.

That was the idea.

You don't wanna roll the dice like that.

That's like, that's worse than a consensual non-consent party. I mean, at ALA's parties, you got the, the armband indicating what you're into. Well, again,

this is before the AIDS epidemic. I, I don't care. What if you're not? Like what if they're not

hot?

Well, no, I hear you. But with the point I'm making here is one of the things that I think led to a lot of this, like true promiscuity to die down. We'll talk about the free love movement in a bit. Was the AIDS epidemic in which it was just like, no, you don't want to go to a party without testing people and have sex with random strangers.

Where we have better entertainment

options? I don't, I mean, yes, concern about STDs arose more, but I think the much bigger thing is we can just, there's so many more fun things we can do. Consider that at this time. What did you have? Like occasional TV programs. If you had a TV, radio, like phishing board games, people would invite you over to their house to play cards.

I could see sex being a lot more appealing back then. I, I mean, it would, and what else are you gonna do? And also, like, what else gonna do? You don't have, you can't even work, you know, you and I are like, well, we could have sex or we could work more. And like, this is a crucial time in human history. So like, often the trade off is like, should we be working or should we have sex?

And like even back then, like, you know, husband, like wife is at home, husband finishes his nine to five, like literally he doesn't have a telephone. Like he's, he's not at the office. All his people, there's not that much work you can even do. Like Yeah. He literally can't work if he wanted to. So when he, someone he

does woodworking or sex, like Yeah, that's like,

and I mean, sex is probably a little more interesting than woodworking.

So like Yeah, I could, I could totally see people turning to this because it's,

oh, key parties by the way, do not appear to have been a myth. In a 2008 slate article, it cites interviews with 1970 swingers who confirmed key parties occurred

you would have to have a really trusting. And like you have to have a group where everyone just agreed.

I think it'd have to be like this, the Secret Lives of Mormon wives situation where like everyone is equally young and hot. You know, like they're all sevens to tens here. One,

Interviewee were called a 1972 Ohio Key Party where couples used a bowl to swap partners. In the 1997 film, the Ice Storm portrays a key party in 1970s Connecticut, reflecting its cultural resonance through dramatization.

A 2015 New York Post notes key parties were a fad between the 1960s and seventies of suburbanites. And a 2010 Village Voice interview with a retired Long Island couple described attending a 1969 key party, noting it was awkward but thrilling and involved eight couples that knew each other socially.

They emphasized it was a one-off experiment and not a regular practice. I, I think you're right. This is all, you know people who know each other that's

well and who would all be like, there's no way it's gonna happen. If not everyone is like, I'm open to any of you. '

cause you're not gonna play that game of, well, I mean, look at Aless parts.

You can look at our video on like, or organizing orgies. There're so curated. Yeah. And she

works so hard to get the right mix of people. Like all these things. And there's all these considerations. I mean, on one hand, like the key party, at least you don't have to worry about group dynamics. It's all one-on-one.

But then it's also a little bit more risky that way because there's not the oversight in each individual private household. So

Yeah. But I could, I could see, you know, especially if you're like, you know, a lot of these women are on benzos. Like they're stay-at-home moms. They are tired of existing, you know, like I could see them just being like, screw it. Like just the thrill of not knowing. Who is going to come to your house could just, like, they, that's, that's the rock bottom.

No,

they hit, I, I think we see the, the, the end wr of this sort of mindset in movies like American Beauty and stuff like this, which was sort of the last era of like couples who had this sort of existential hatred for their lives and everything. I think that's why a lot of our generation hasn't gotten married is we saw this in our parents, but like I look at my, I recently had my dad over and he's just impossible to talk to.

I, you know, he is like, well, you know, there's so many things that matter in life, like experiences. And I was like, no, the only thing that matters is what you do. You know that you've got nothing left to live for. Now this is not a nice thing to say to your dad, but I mean, I'm just like, but honestly, like our life, the, the, the weight of our life isn't the years we live or the indulgences that we participate in.

It is what we do to make the world a better place for the next generation. And this as a concept just couldn't get through to a boomer. Right. But I also

think that at this time, as I was pointing out earlier, there weren't a lot of options for people to make the world a better place. So what are they gonna do with their free time?

And again, i I, there's so many things going on, right? Like testosterone levels are dropping, sex drive is dropping. In general, people are off hormonally. So I think there's just less inherent little like, endogenous chemical drive for sex now. Yeah. But also, yeah, we are, we are more prudish. We are a lot more cautious.

We are a lot more self-conscious. We are given so many alternatives that the opportunity cost of pursuing and having sex, even if sex is immediately available, is so high.

I. Absolutely. So let's get to the mutual masturbation that was common in the 1950s. Men

or is this women? Like I I would be so men.

Men, I have

found no accounts of women doing this.

Wouldn't women, but like men are. A lot of men are. Well, okay. Actually a lot of men are not turned off by penises in your data, right? They were like,

yeah. They, they were okay with like, this is weird. I would've found this to be the most disgusting thing ever.

Like, I, I know, could go. But anyway. No,

like, is it, is it, is it a cultural thing?

Are people like, it's a cultural thing? I think, I think it was just so normalized that this is the way that you did things. So, to go over some anecdotes here, because I find it pretty interesting. Okay. Kinzie's data suggested mutual masturbation was common among pubescent boys in context like sleepovers in locker rooms.

He noted it was typically non-romantic at school. Yeah. Locker rooms, yes. By curiosity or competition. And they were quote unquote called circle jerks. I remember I read an account of one of these and, and when he says competition, he means that literally, apparently the comp, like who comes faster, what, or who's bigger, who know who come goes farther, was like one of the things that they, oh,

I wonder how far, like is there Guinness Brook of world records for like, I don't know, but I remember

the person who wrote this story.

This was in a book that I was given on like, what was the sexuality as a kid? What's the farthest? And it was somebody talking about their own early sexual experiences. Okay. And they were like, I dreamed that one day I could build like an erector set or something that could make mine go even further. You know, like, 'cause anything could be solved with technology.

The physics. Yeah. Well, how are you aiming? During the strokes. Yeah. You gotta get that perfect

hole. This is playing up. What was the old game that we played? Mine? Mine. You shot like Yeah,

I

know

what you're talking about. Yeah. There's this old game where we shot canon balls. Try to hit the so a, a a 2000 four journal, A sex research article cites 1950s orals histories.

Okay. Where men were called neutral masturbation as a quote unquote normal part of adolescence, often in rural or segregated settings with women with, with female limited. With limited female interaction. But wait, hold on. I'm just, I'm

trying to think of these. Circle trick. The big, the men have to be turned on.

Like, you can't just be like hard just thinking about being the man to come the furthest No, they, they'd be like, can you just, can you just get off? Like without being turned on as a guy serious.

Like, I'm trying to think of how this works. Okay. They're very young. They're only, keep in mind their, their arousal levels are very high because they're so young.

So like, they just need to think about

like boobs and then, like, they're, they're good to go. They

wouldn't normally turn them on. There is a bunch of friends, right? Like, one interviewee described it as just fooling around. Not a big deal. In a 1950s Iowa farm community they have access to

the animals.

So I'm sure mutual masturbation was like tame. 'cause in

a 2015 Reddit thread are as historians featured, a user calling their grandfather's stories of a 1950s circled jerks at a Pennsylvania summer camp, describing it as a competitive game among boys. Not sexualized, but just what kids did before. It seems cooler

to me when it's competitive.

Like I'm a lot more interested in this sport of how far can you come? I think that is a lot more, I love that. You're like, but

logistically how did it work? I want,

well, I mean, you know, as soon as you bring that into it, you know, like, now this is about skill, this is about precision. This is about physics.

This is about health. Like I'm, they're timing their frequency of emissions.

Yeah. You gotta, you gotta eat the right things. You gotta drink the right things.

Performance athletes.

Okay, so here's another crazy one. Which, which I, for ai, AI couldn't figure any of this out for me. I had to like ask it like, okay, you're making AI

so uncomfortable with all

this, right?

Like, so, another one that was common historically was group porn viewing where there were, now this is like those,

those theaters that, that you can sometimes still drive by in old cities, right? Where like,

yeah. The, the, the thing that made me aware of this was Ewey Herman, the actor who played him ended up basically Paul Rubin's having his life ruined over being at one of these, which I've always felt so bad about it.

You're going to a, basically, he was masturbating, quote unquote, in public 'cause he was masturbating during a porn movie theater viewing. Oh, that doesn't count. I'm like, what? That does, not everyone there knows why they're going there.

Yeah, I mean, if you're not allowed to masturbate in those movie

theaters, a post article quote, sex therapist Hoffer questioning police priorities, what do they expect is happening at these movie theaters?

Men attend those movies to become aroused. Like that, that was, but you wouldn't do this today. No one would do this today. Like, I mean maybe they still exist for like octogenarians or something, but like, I can't imagine people of our generation being like, well, I could watch porn on the internet, or I could go to a movie theater and masturbate in a room full of other men masturbating.

Yeah,

no, about this man.

By the way, if you're wondering, what, what was the film that got him in trouble? It was Catalina five Oh, tiger Shark, nurse Nancy. And turn Up the Heat, because I needed to

know that

it was in 1991, July 26 at the South Trail Cinema. Well, he was fined for $50 in a 75 hours of community service, and it completely destroyed his career.

And he was such a good actor. I like, I feel so bad about this. Like, honestly.

Yeah.

But that also shows like this, this, this you know, diametric, right? Like society was okay with these theaters existing. This is a common thing back then that people did. But if you were caught and the police did regular stings it could ruin your life if you had a public career.

Yeah. Ugh,

man. Now here's another fun one, Uhhuh. Okay? Okay. Yeah. So we're gonna talk about female, female and male nudity. 'cause it used to be much more common in the 1960s and 1980s. Public displays of female nudity, particularly toplessness, were more socially accepted in certain contexts. Okay. Such as beaches, festivals and media compared to today.

Yeah. During this, the, the sexual revolution, modesty norms were loosened. And topless sunbathing became common in Europe, France couture azo in certain parts of the USA eeg California's beach in the 1970s. And the 1970s New York City had topless dancing bars in, in clubs, and it was legal into a 1986 ban per New York Times article venues like Paolo's Retreat, a 1970 Swingers Club featured open nudity among men and women as part of the era's sexual liberation.

Yeah. And in 1964, introduction of the Monokini, a topless swimsuit by designer Ruby Gch was celebrated as a feminist statement. It was women wearing it publicly in Los Angeles, in New York per a 1964 Life Magazine feature. Okay? Arrests were rare and often overturned. In fact, at Woodstock festival attendees record women going topless to the 1969 event, describing it as liberating and normal.

Unlike today, which is kind of crazy.

Yeah. But when we did it, we actually stood for something. I mean, remember Woodstock, Sharon?

We actually did something there.

Woohoo. Woo.

Yeah, I mean, as you and I grew up, I remember a whole lot more nudity. And

I do, I remember talking, I know for a fact I remember like the allure of all of this, like, nudist, communes. It's not that they don't still exist, but it's a significantly smaller community.

Well, I think

now it's sexualized, whereas before it was more normal. Or like even just families, like your parents sometimes wouldn't bother to put swimsuits on you. And that my parents too and their, there are photos from like, oh yeah, I remember at the island,

like, all of the, the, the Bahamian kids would swim naked, like, yeah, be

cool.

Yeah, because like, why get your swimsuit dirty? Why buy a swimsuit? You know, why, why? You know? Yeah. I, it, there are elements of it that, that make a lot of sense. And yeah, it's just, I think now we've become hypersensitized to sex in many ways. You know? We're like, Ooh, this is a big deal. Which is interesting.

Yeah. I guess I never thought about the fact that really society has become. A lot more conservative in terms of clothing.

It's not just that. So, it also public n like events where everyone was expected to be nude were much more common historically. A 1940s Life magazine feature on women's bathhouse has described nity as practical and social Yeah.

Which women tried openly while bathing.

Well, no, that's still, like, that's still the case in Sen in Japan.

In, in Japan, but not in the, I I've been to like as I've said, as a kid, I went to like a naked, like hot spring in the United States. Mm-hmm. And I remember feeling deeply uncomfortable and I would be very surprised if it was still naked or not, like a weird thing for it to be naked in the United States.

Hmm. And, and in Japan, when I've done this, it's been like deeply un I have not enjoyed this, this culturally for me, I was raised never wanting to be naked around other men, or, I don't know. I mean, like, as a kid, I guess

as a, when, when you became a teenager. Right.

Just in case you're wondering when the height of the nude beach phenomenon was, it was in the 1960s.

And, and oral histories from the 1950s and sixties, college women cited a 2005 journal in social history.

Recall, communal showers being a routine. Mm-hmm. In embarrassment, rare and, and a 2015 slate essay by a woman recalling 1960s YMCA swim classes described n swimming as mandatory and uncontroversial. So nude swimming was at the yca swimming.

Then you have, yeah, so

that's, yeah. That's, that's also not serious swimming because you need to streamline your body to be a good swimmer. You want, like, you don't want them who you're as

a person, you're immediately thinking of the practical concern. Well, no, it's true. Like, you don't,

like you all, you do as a, as a competitive swimmer to like, in terms of what you're thinking about with your body is how do I eliminate drag?

You're doing that with your form. You're doing that with like. Tight, tight swims.

But I mean, like, you've seen how much like modern, like Olympians are compared to like historic Olympians and like, you know, like historic Olympians is like a somersault. Yeah. It's like I broke my leg and kept going.

Yeah. No, it's, people are, it's, it's amazing how athletes have just made everything

crazy.

Also, the hippie community. So if you look at things like California Sandstone Retreat from 1968 to 1976, it encouraged open sexuality with men and women engaging in group six and partner sharing by the rejection of monogamous norms per 1972 feature. These communities, for example, by Life Magazine in, in 1970 estimated 2000 US communes with 50,000 to a hundred thousand participants.

Golly. And like sex sharing communes.

Well, and you know what I'd also be interested to, to know from like Burning Man veterans. Is is nudity at Burning Man? Less of a thing now because it was pervasive even when I went in 2005. But maybe now it's just not, maybe people aren't, you know, walking around Burning Man naked anymore.

I wonder. I think part of it's also an awareness of of skin cancer as well, though. Like, you're covering up not just because you feel self-conscious, but because the world itself is hostile, like , the male gaze is hostile, the female gaze is hostile, the sun is hostile. Everything's just out to hurt your body, so you must cover it up.

Yeah. And gr says Burning Man nudity has gone down dramatically every time. Well, and how does,

well,

okay, gr. Yeah, this is, this is, this is what AI tell. No, I can totally see that. Right? Like it starts by being super counter-cultural. You get more people and now it's like the

new Coachella. Yeah. And

now there's like, you know, five or you know, you, you'll see a few new people a day, but they're more like exhibitionists five.

Damn. What, how many did you see when you were there?

A lot. And it was all like, kids were running around naked, like little wild animals and adults. And it, I mean, the, the really refreshing thing about Burning Man when I went in 2005 or four, four or five was it the naked people weren't ugly? 'cause in all the other contexts in which I typically saw naked people, it was, they were exhibitionists in like, you know, during like pride month in San Francisco or something.

And quite often they were not attractive, you know, they were, oh my God, I remember going, what was

it, Folsom Street Fair? I used to,

yeah. And then you're just like, you're not typically like the. Eh, like, I don't know. I think at Pride related events, the people who go naked are not attractive for whatever. I don't know if it's like the attractive ones.

No. They can charge you money for it, or

No, it's fora bytes. We've talked about this before. This. Okay. Well, anyway, Cina Byte Lifestyle. Okay. Yeah. What was unique

at Burning Man was the naked people were on average fit and attractive and like, fine. It was, it was not weird. It was not like creepy. It was just.

You don't have to wear clothes here, so do it. You know? I, I wear clothes for the record.

But, but I guess if we're looking for where has society become more sexually restrictive over time? Mm-hmm. I think a few areas. One is areas in which men used to have to find other ways to get off or used to have a, a, a larger, a domain of ways to get off before online porn.

Like, before online pouring was normalized, it was like, like, yeah. What were your options? A freaking

magazine, a comic book that you, you had to use. I'm gonna go to my barber

and ask for Rule 34. I'm gonna ask my friends, Hey, you want to do the Jack Off competition? Mm-hmm. Like, I think that a lot of this is just like, there's other things to access.

Now. I think another thing is, is that genuinely the idea of being nude around I. Same gender peers has become dramatically less normalized. And

Malcolm, the idea of being around peers has become far less normalized. People don't hang out with friends physically with that.

Why be nude around them, right?

Like, yeah. So I think that that's been a big part of what we've seen. I think access to animals, but also sexual restrictions around morality have become more normalized instead of sexual restrictions for just the sake of restriction where you, where you have to deal with like the consent of an animal or something like that.

And again, I'll never understand, people be like, well, the animal and the cow doesn't consent that I ate it. Like I, I'm sure it was dramatically more concerned about that than anything else. I don't wanna be seen as like arguing for this stuff because I, I have no horse in this. I do not of all the things, I do not yeah.

You're, you're

into stuff, but it's not one of those,

this is not the stuff.

Yeah. But I don't, so also just when it comes back to zoophilia, I don't know how much people are really into zoophilia as, as they are into, like, I just don't have to talk with a human for this.

That's what a lot of them say.

It's, it's that they don't have to do with judgment. And they like, it's not

that they would like to have sex, I think of an animal of

this trend of like white women. But now we have

real dolls. We have, we have flashlights and real dolls, and I feel like they were the original flashlights and real dolls.

Now we just, now we have them.

So, so large dogs are the real dogs for, for progressive white women.

There were specific breeds. They weren't necessarily, they, they were larger dogs, but like, they, she, she like, remember she'd like Paw Choice. She's like, well you gotta be careful about the claws. And like, oh God,

I love how much stresses you out

burned into my, I like, I don't know why, why we looked into that.

There are things you're never gonna forget. You know? I think it's a really interesting topic to explore because it was. We always view our grandparents generation as being like these moral saints. And I'm like, you know, like 40% of men participated in circle jerks of that generation. Like yeah. They, they were not the, the moral paragons we see in them of today.

Oh know though, like the, the, the, the, the competition element may turns it for me into good, clean fun. Well, it is making fun of your body.

WI guess what I'm saying, I'm okay with that saying is, is when I say deviance in their own, they were deviance in their own ways, but they were wholesome was in their own communities.

'cause it's, yeah. So

to me, like in, in the age of king Louis, the, no, no, no. When Maria Antoinette, sorry, I'm, I'm mixing up my, my eras. The, the court, the French court was very young. And one thing that they did to amuse themselves was have farting contests on who could best imitate the sound of like a fine trumpet.

And I think this is like that, putting these things in the same category of just like body humor. People being bored. I think it's like a key party is very different. It's turning to specifically sex as, as entertainment. Mm-hmm. So, yeah, I don't know. These are, I

find all this fascinating to go into because it's something that I hadn't considered well, I how debauched the past used to be.

Well,

and this, this definitely slots in to people's recognition that gen Z and Gen Alpha are quite in, in many ways showing signs of extreme prudishness, if not at least religious conservatism.

Well, no,

like, it's, it's a combination of sexlessness, religious conservatism and prudishness. Mm-hmm.

But I think there's a big difference between being a full CINA byte, which some people of this generation are just like absolute, like anything goes, I'm going to die, dedicate my entire life to arousal and self validation.

Yeah. Except,

here's the thing. No. If you are more fully. Pushing toward hedonistic pleasure in our age, you are not going to pursue sex because sex exposes you to potential rejection. It exposes you to potential physical discomfort. It has logistical complications that involves a lot of t dium, a huge amount of t

dium from the hedonists.

They, they end up becoming lewd tubers. We did the valence episode where we like discussed the life of a cbi, somebody who went down this path and, and, and she has eventually withdrawn from public life and just does online stuff because she has too much rejection in it. Well,

and, and because, yeah, the most hedonistic choice now involves zero sex.

It is, it is not the most hedonistic choice. So I think really in the future, sex is going to be a self-identity based thing. It's not going to be for pleasure. No, I agree. I agree.

As we get these AI worlds, these vi avatars, et cetera, VR avatars, I, I think that that people who are seduced by a lifestyle of hedonism are g always gonna have better options.

Mm-hmm. And sex will be like a, a diligent thing that's done between like granola husband and wives to have. Yes.

Yeah. No, and, and you know, it's so funny because the, one of the catch phrases of Nor Sidiki, the founder of Orchid, which does polygenic risk score selection, is sex is for fun. IVF is for babies or something like that.

Right? Like, just like that kind of distinguishing future trend. But yeah, sex is for fun is out. Like we've already passed that We are in a postex age. And I don't think people realize, I, I, I didn't realize until we had this conversation just how far into that we were, that we are no longer we as kids, like a billion years ago, 'cause we're so freaking old, didn't even use the shared shower locker rooms of our high schools.

That's crazy.

It's, it's, it is wild to think about where society is going, but I think it's better. I, I think a society where sex is a duty as it was historically, is better than a society where sex is an indulgence.

You said

duty. For, for most men and women, because they always know that anything else they can do is, is, is gonna be more arousing than sex.

'cause they got the VR environment with anyone they want. You know?

I know, I know. You can like, yeah. No matter if you're male or female, there is, there is some tech driven solution that will I. Be better at optimizing for physical hedonic pleasure.

Well, I think that cultures that can't do this, recontextualization are gonna go extinct.

Cultures have still tried to tell people, as we saw with, with many cultures in our own generation. A lot of these questions are like, well, if you wait for marriage, it's gonna be better. And then they were like, wait, this isn't better. This sucks. Ext isn't that good. Why, why, why did I build this up? Yeah.

Because that was thing you were supposed to be doing. It was supposed to be doing. You, you, you live a life to sacrifice for the next generation. Well, and

I all, I think other religions though like, one of our favorite ex-Mormon influencers, bemoans the extent to which the LDS church communicated to young women that sex wasn't gonna be pleasurable.

If anything, it was gonna be painful. And here are things to

prepare for that, I think thing to communicate to young women.

I don't disagree with you, but what I'm saying is that like, I don't think it, it, it has even been a, a pervasive sexual strategy of. Of Christian denominations or, or religious denominations to say that sex is is for pleasure.

I, I think that, you know, for most people it's just like this. No, no, no. There's

been a recent thing where, where some Christians have tried to catch up with the secular world by being like, oh yeah, that's, we do it our way, it's better. And it's like, no, come on. It's a duty.

Yeah.

And it's now, it's an unnecessary, to me, it's so fun when our sons ask us, like, where did I come from?

Like I've, I've, I've explained this to them. Like I, I've had conversations with our kids when they, they like ask us like. You know, like, well, okay, so, you know, this is how you know animals and some humans make other humans. Mommy and daddy took parts of them using medical science and had technicians in a lab combine them.

And I like, show them videos of like embryologists like, and they're

like, God did for Jesus, because we know it's Joseph sperm. Otherwise he wouldn't be the Messiah because the Messiah had to come from the Diic line. So we know that God is an IVF doctor.

It's just so cool though. Like I, I would've been so much more comfortable as a kid thinking that I was the result of my parents really working very hard to create me and using scientists and using testing and making sure I had every best chance instead of like, oh, I got drunk one night.

I'm like, you know,

I, well, I know, right? Like, love shot. So dinner tonight, we we're getting close to the end here. Yeah,

it's, you're gonna have to wait 'cause it's gonna take me a while to make all that.

You doing panang.

That's what you wanted. Right?

Of course that's what I wanted. But if you want to do something faster or reheat something tonight, that's also okay.

Do we have the German journalist coming tomorrow? Because I can do a big pinine batch when he's here.

Yeah, he'd like that. I did that for the journalist. Okay. When is he coming?

Is he coming tomorrow?

Tomorrow? It's Wednesday. Tomorrow,

yes. Oh my gosh. Time flies. Okay. So yeah, sorry, I was just checking my calendar.

So then tonight I can do, would you like to do the mango curry or would you like to do

Yeah. Reheat the mango curry and put in some pineapple.

Yeah. Okay. I think that that's the appropriate, that is the correct answer I saw in comments from. Yesterday's or the today's episode that ran, they were just like, just say what you're having for dinner.

What are you having for dinner?

Oh, we didn't do it. What we're having for dinner. They need that at the end.

Oh, it, it's I mean, it's an incomplete episode when we do not discuss Oh.

Because we do typically two episodes a day and then we split them up to try to make them work on a, on, you know, multiple days.

So we're only doing the dinner conversation once for the two episodes. Yeah. Word. Which is why, I'm sorry, I'm so sorry you guys, you didn't get to hear what I'm having for dinner. The peoples of the dinner. What is so sweet? Come on. We, we live in this world where people don't talk about your mango. Curry was really good by the way.

But you probably wanna add a few of the red eye, the tie. Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah. And they're still pretty good to up a bit.

Yeah, I'll add some of those. I'll add I'll, it doesn't need coconut milk. I'll just add pineapple. And we're good to go.

Yeah. If you wanna add some coconut milk, I would not mind at all, because we gotta get rid of that.

Right. And if you boil it down, that could be nice.

I think I'll be able to use it, a lot of it if I make a big batch of Panang Curry, so I'm not

double check that we have the panang stuff. I

will Thank you.

Because I'm pretty sure we never threw that out, even though it expired long ago. But I don't think it's gonna go bad.

Expiration dates are a scam.

It's a conspiracy. It, no, it's, it's, it is a conspiracy. I agree a hundred percent. In most cases buy more stuff every, every eight years, you know, come on

you say that and yet you've only expired things. And I just eat my way through them and I'm super okay with that. 'cause my stomach

cheese expired milk, like milk does expire. So my stomach

is made out of like steel. I feel nothing. I'm like, we

know we are actually like ravenous, like the backwards monsters.

Like are you eating like actively inspired the fire breed? I am always shocked. I'm like, if society understood like what you and I actually are biologically, they'd be like, oh, they can mimic polite society, but they are not polite society.

I love it. Yeah, you can

tell it when you see our children playing out, you know, these like wild raccoons and they're like, oh.

That's what you are.

No, I, I see, I see, I see the kid who we like will send to take care of them, like running from them and then like the oldest will like jump on him and then the rest pounce on him as he falls over. I feel so bad.

Yeah. That's pretty funny though.

I'm like, oh no, it's a gang. It's a gang.

Collins says going after him. It's just how they show love. It's just yeah. Anyway. No, it's not. Is how they troll people. Right. They understand. I see in our kids they titan

especially, she always starts it.

Love you.

Love you too.

Well, so, so you remember how I pointed out that, that one of our podcast listeners was telling me like, oh, the, it was the legalization of gay marriage that caused all of this DEI and trans stuff to explode. And the, the Catholic community saw it coming, and that's one of the big reasons why against it.

That makes sense. And I was like, that can't be, like, I don't under, like, gay marriage has nothing to do with trans rights. And

actually the legalization of gay marriage did a lot to undermine the LGBT movement because it split off the real LGBT from the crazy ones. Well,

so yeah, and I, I mean, I see that too, but I'm just like, I don't see how suddenly the legalization of gay marriage could lead to all these other things.

But she pointed out and suddenly it was like, oh, this sounds credible. If you're a nonprofit who's, who has raised millions of dollars to legalize gay marriage in the United States. And then gay marriage in the United States is legalized. What do you do the day after it's legalized? You just like, okay,

closing shop.

We're all done here. But that's the thing. We have to shut down these organizations now. You know, this is why you know, I have such antipathy towards these organizations and why I think many organizations have historically served an important role in our country need to be in now. Yeah. They

need to be spun down.

Same with the government. I mean, this is something that you point out in the prag guide to governance in general, is that in an ideal world, organizations wouldn't last that long. They wouldn't get that big.

This is, this is, this is a bit like saying we should be structurally racist as a society. So the organizations that were built to fight structural racism you know, still had something to fight instead of the crazy DEI stuff they fight for today.

Well, it's like, no, we should fix structural racism. So they have no reason to exist. Yeah. And then

wind them down. Yeah. Because they bet they don't need to exist anymore. But so I was like. Okay, but did this actually happen? Did the nonprofits that decided that they wanted to continue to exist then switch to promoting trans rights and DEI?

And so I asked perplexity to do deep research on this using, I mean, I I love that Perplexity Pro, like, man, like premium AI services are great. And indeed, after the legalization of gay marriage in the United States in 2015, many nonprofits a and advocacy organizations had that had focused on marriage equality shifted their attention and resources to a range of other pressing issues affecting the LGBTQ plus community.

So they, they really did switch to one anti-discrimination protections, two transgender rights, three youth support and mental health. We'll see how that went, like making it a big thing. Racial and economic justice elder support, which, okay, I'm fine with hiv, aids and health advocacy. And community buildings.

So they also gave a table of example organizations and their evolving missions. So Lambda Legal went from marriage litigation and then after the, the legalization of gay marriage focused on anti-discrimination insurance, gender rights, healthcare, immigration, and police misconduct which all became very divisive issues in the United States during this period.

Yeah, the National Center for Transgender Equality. Went from policy advocacy to legal recognition. Healthcare access and fighting for anti-trans

healthcare legislation means free drugs to transition. Yeah.

The Trevor Project shifted from youth crisis intervention to expanded mental health services to suicide prevention and advocacy for excuse and conversion therapy, inclusive school policies is what they call it.

SAGE went from elder advocacy to continued support for L-G-B-T-Q, rights fighting age-related discrimination. And the Equality Federation went from state level advocacy to ending conversion therapy, protecting gender affirming and reproductive care and anti-discrimination laws. So it does seem that after gay marriage was legalized, that their attention was then just redirected to more extreme things, which we would associate, you know, including youth mental health focus, which of course comes from a good place.

But ultimately we argue made things a lot worse. But it comes conversion

therapy.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, one, I'm not, yeah, like isolates people from their home culture, not conversion

into gay, it's conversion into trans. This is, this is what this thing is. And you, you, you can't talk someone into being gay, but you can't talk to them into being trans.

I want I, I'll just take stuff. Okay. You you wanna try that Tyson? Go ahead. You can eat it all because I don't eat it anymore. Yeah, you don't wanna eat any, your cotton candy, right? I Tell me, do you like it, bunny? I think I, I want, yeah, so you can eat it all.

Yay. I can eat it. Yeah. Look at your big blue cloud of cotton candy. I took a bite off it. Is it yummy? Yeah. Drink a bite.