Intro

Thanks for joining us at the unSeminary podcast. In this episode of the unSeminary Podcast, we’re joined by Danny Anderson, Lead Pastor of Emmanuel Church in Indiana, and Rachel Long, founder of the Joshua Center. They share their story of navigating a significant transition when Rachel moved from being the Executive Pastor at Emmanuel Church to working full time for the Joshua Center, a nonprofit dedicated to supporting grieving children and families.

Is your church facing the challenge of a key staff member transition? Wondering how to handle leadership changes in a way that honors both the individual and the mission? Tune in as Danny and Rachel discuss the importance of fostering a healthy organizational culture where open communication and support can thrive, especially during times of transition.

• It’s okay to talk about transitions. // Staff transitions can feel threatening for church leaders, which often leads to avoidance and breakdowns in communication. Conversations about change should be welcomed—not feared. Leaders must create environments where team members feel safe to explore God’s calling without being met with suspicion or disappointment.
• Create safe, coaching-based conversations. // As an employee, be open and honest about what God is doing in your life. As a pastor or church leader, embrace your role as a shepherd, not a gatekeeper. Regular check-ins, prayer, and coaching allow conversations about transition to evolve organically over time, giving both parties space to discern God’s will. When staff members sense they are truly supported, they are more likely to leave well and continue to champion the church’s vision from a new place.
• Each departure is a culture shaping event. // Team members are always watching how transitions are handled, and poor exits can instill fear across staff. By proactively discussing what it means to leave well, leaders can model open-handedness and reinforce a healthy organizational culture. Without surrendering their staff members to God, church leaders open themselves up to feelings of offense and betrayal, leading to toxic staff transitions.
• Work through the gap. // When a key leader leaves, the gap is real—but it’s also a chance to elevate others. What follows a staff transition is one of the indicators of how good a leader was. Danny shares how Rachel’s former direct reports stepped up and excelled, thanks to her development and empowerment. A well-prepared team can carry the mission forward, even after a major transition.
• Follow where God is leading you. // For anyone sensing a shift in their calling, follow God’s leading with courage and integrity. It’s your responsibility to be authentic and follow God’s leadership in your life first. Don’t wait until you’ve made up your mind to speak with your pastor. Engage early, pray fervently, and seek wise counsel. You’re responsible for obeying God’s voice, not for managing your pastor’s emotional reaction.
• Start the conversation now. // If you’re a lead pastor, assume someone currently on your team needs to have this transition conversation. Don’t wait—create the space. Even dedicating a staff meeting to discuss how to leave well can set the tone for a more open and trusting culture.

To learn more about Joshua Center, visit them on their website at www.joshuacenter.org and reach out to Rachel Long here. You can follow along with Danny Anderson on Instagram @dannyanderson23 and check out the Church Growth Unleashed conference at churchgrowthunleashed.org and the podcast here.

Listen to previous unSeminary podcasts featuring Danny Anderson or Rachel Long:

• Big Dreams, Healthy Rhythms: Avoiding Burnout in Growing Churches with Danny Anderson
• Increasing the Impact of the Serving Experience on Volunteers with Rachel Long
• Moving a Fast Growing Multisite Church from Centralized to Decentralized Leadership Structure with Rachel Long
• Danny Anderson on Assuming the Leadership of a 29 Year Old Church When He Was 28

EXTRA CREDIT // Staff Exit Debrief Template

This episode is all about leaving well — and we’ve created a practical resource to help your church do just that.

Whether you’re a lead pastor, executive pastor, or team leader, the Staff Exit Debrief Template gives you a clear framework for holding honest, honoring conversations when someone transitions off your team. It helps you celebrate their contribution and capture valuable lessons to strengthen your culture going forward.

This downloadable doc is included inside unSeminary Extra Credit. Members can access it here.

Not a member yet? Join today for instant access to this resource and more tools to help you lead smarter: unseminaryextracredit.com

Click here to join unSeminary Extra Credit and get instant access to this resource and more!

Thank You for Tuning In!

There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally!

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Episode Transcript

Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Really looking forward to today’s conversation. It’s going to be a really helpful one. You know, over the years I’ve had people reach out and say, Hey, you should talk about this thing that we’re going to talk about today. And frankly, I’ve resisted talking about it because I haven’t known what to talk about and how to kind of refer to it. We’re talking about team transitions today, and specifically two people that have been on the podcast before who used to work together that are now leading in two different organizations. And we’re going to talk about what that looked like.

Rich Birch — We’re honored today to have, again, Pastor Danny Anderson with us. He’s the lead pastor of a great church, Emmanuel church, a multisite church with seven campuses, if I’m counting correctly, in Indianapolis, Indiana plus an online, a number of microsites. They’ve repeatedly been been one of the fastest growing churches in the country. And ah Rachel Long, who was one of the executive pastors there. In 2022, she founded the Joshua Center that we’ve talked about before, a non-profit bereavement center for children and families. We’re going to link to all of that so that you can find their two organizations. But welcome to the show, again, Rachel and Danny, welcome. Glad you’re here.

Danny Anderson — Thanks for having with us, Rich.

Rachel Long — Thank you.

Danny Anderson — It’s an honor.

Rachel Long — Yeah.

Rich Birch — Why don’t we start with you, Rachel? Kind of give us a little bit of, tell us a little bit of your story. Talk to us about, you know, remind people that maybe don’t listen to every single episode. I know for my mom…

Rachel Long — For sure.

Rich Birch — …she, she will have listened to every episode, but not everyone listens to every episode. So ah tell us a little bit about you and your background again.

Rachel Long — Sure. Well, I started at Emmanuel Church after a season of being a developmental therapist. So I’ll start with the Emmanuel piece. About 13 and a half years ago I started working in Emmanuel, but before that I Emmanuel had been my church for 10 years. And I was a key impact team member there and both the students and in the children’s area. And so raised my kids there. I am married for 26 years and have three kids a girl and two boys. And so we had been at Emmanuel for years and years and so getting to work there was certainly an honor and a privilege.

Rachel Long — And in, like you said, in 2022 I started just part-time, you know, just part-time working founding the Joshua Center. And it is a bereavement Center for grieving children, adolescents and their families in Greenwood, Indiana and ah it grew faster than it’s we call it unfortunate growth, right? Like it’s bereaved children.

Rich Birch — Right.

Rachel Long — It’s not something that I’m like trying to raise the bottom line on.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Rachel Long — But so…

Rich Birch — Let’s increase the amount of breathing children. No one wants to set that KPI.

Rachel Long — No, no, no. However, I will say I’m happier that they’re here than the than with not getting help.

Rich Birch — Yes. Good.

Rachel Long — So my husband and I launched Joshua Center. It is in honor of my little brother that we lost in ’05. And when that happened, there was ah really nothing for my children. And then specifically speaking to grief, I had a highly negative encounter with a therapist. Now I will say this, my church was there for me every step of the way, my small group was. So they helped me get back on my feet and keep moving. However, I needed more mental help with it too.

Rachel Long — And so I went into what’s called delayed grief. And I don’t wish that on anyone. And it was about seven years of like…

Rich Birch — Oh, wow.

Rachel Long — …if I heard the word Josh crying and like there was no hope and healing. And that’s what Joshua Center is really all about, helping those families find hope and healing. That’s why we exist. And so it grew and grew and grew and I was spending evenings and Saturdays here at Joshua Center.

Rachel Long — And there just came a crux, a time when it was time to talk to Pastor Danny and he had set the stage. And I mean, just 30,000 foot view, it we were able to talk through what was going on. It took a little while, which is fine. We didn’t want to rush anything. I loved Emmanuel and would never cheat my church. And so. But Danny loved me and so he didn’t want to cheat me. So there was a lot of support there.

Rachel Long — So that’s like, uh, just a little snapshot of what has happened to us recently. And so over the past three years, it doubled the first year and has already doubled again since leaving, since my leaving of Emmanuel in October. So it’s more than doubled, but not tripled yet. So. Although thats that’s, again, not great news. There’s kids with grief, loss, and trauma that we’re working with. The the good news is is’s that they’re receiving faith-based interventions. So.

Rich Birch — Cool. Danny, why don’t you fill in the picture about Emmanuel again for folks that that haven’t, you know, that would that would haven’t listened to your episodes or don’t track closely with you who kind of tell us a little bit of that story.

Danny Anderson — Yeah, you know as you mentioned, you know we’re a multisite church in central Indiana, and I took over as the lead pastor in 2006 for our founding pastor and made it through that transition barely. And you know since then, you know we’ve we’ve been building a great team. God’s been so gracious to us. Rachel’s been ah a part of that from the beginning.

Danny Anderson — And yeah, it’s just been a ah fun journey to figure out the multisite strategy and reaching people. And our passion is to see people come to Christ and grow in Christ. You know, we we say we’re on a relentless pursuit of people who are far from God. And you know it’s pretty simple vision. And we try to you know basically use our campus model to to fulfill that vision. And so, yeah, I’m here with Rachel because, you know, she decided it was a little bit less than a year ago to to part ways with our church. And and that has been probably the best transition we’ve had so far off of our team. And we were and we were really super intentional with that. So, yeah…

Rich Birch — Yeah. but Let’s talk about that.

Danny Anderson — …that’s where we’re at.

Rich Birch — Why don’t we start with you, Danny? Like I I feel like so many times these transitions don’t go well. You know Rachel was a senior leader, executive pastor in your organization, and from your seat as the lead pastor, why do you surmise that that these transitions maybe don’t necessarily always go well. You know what why am I hesitant to even talk about this? What is you know what why is why do I feel anxiety about today’s conversation, Danny? Talk to me about that.

Danny Anderson — Yeah, I, you know, I think it’s a hard thing because senior leaders, man, they’re, we’re weird people. We are control freaks, we, we, ah we like we think we own people sometimes. They’re they belong to us. You know, we don’t want to talk about or even think about departures. It’s it’s just it’s uncomfortable conversation. You know sometimes we think we’re going to do the ministry with the same people forever.

Rich Birch — Right.

Danny Anderson — So we we function in that and that idea, which is not true. But I think I think a lot of it the tension around this topic comes because there’s no, kind there’s no, there is no communication. And I would say the first, the the first thing that helps that we’ve tried to do, Rachel and I have seen it. We’ve been together so long. She was together with me for seven years on the leadership team, but on staff for 13. We’ve seen three or four or five, six scenarios that just did not go well. So we’re, you know, we had this conversation like, how do we fix that? I don’t want that culture.

Rich Birch — Right.

Danny Anderson — I want the type of culture where we love each other so much, we respect each other so much that it’s okay to leave our team without there being hurt feelings or a feeling of betrayal. Or and so how do you do that? And the first thing that that we discovered is that you have to start the conversation.

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Danny Anderson — I have and it starts with the senior pastor…

Rich Birch — Right.

Danny Anderson — …you know…

Rich Birch — You’ve got to you’ve got to lead. You have to kind of like even I would imagine even that’s a gift of even saying, hey, like we want to kind of be counter cultural on this thing here. Like we want to be open to having that conversation as opposed to giving off, like people can read that a mile away where it’s like if you ever leave, I will cut you.

Danny Anderson — Absolutely.

Rich Birch — You know, like so even just being open, ah you know, to the conversation, I think is is that’s a big deal. Rachel, what about you?

Danny Anderson — And it starts it…

Rich Birch — Oh, sorry.Go go ahead there, Danny.

Danny Anderson — Yeah, sorry.

Rich Birch — What were you going to say?

Danny Anderson — No, I was gonna say and it it starts with get really giving permission to have the conversation and letting your team know that it’s okay for them to communicate with you.

Rich Birch — Right that’s good. That’s good.

Danny Anderson — And that you’re for them in in that ah because you’re on their team and you want what’s best for them. And so that is what I think kind of triggered the I guess the openness on Rachel’s part, but that that’s the only thing I wanted to jump in on.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Rachel, from your perspective, kind of unpack a little bit of what was going on in your mind and heart. Obviously, this was growing. And then it it looked like, okay, it’s going to reach a tipping point here. How did you you know, how did you kind of try to keep that conversation open? And what would you suggest to other people to try to broach that conversation?

Rachel Long — Sure. It is what Pastor Danny said. Before any of this happened the stage had been set by saying, like, I don’t know why people just throw a two week notice at us and walk out the door. If they have transitions in their life, like he is our pastor first. So he wanted to help us work through that.

Rachel Long — But and honestly, um I would love to say like, oh, I was so self aware that this happened this way. But the truth is being in close connection with Danny, like he knows I would have worked both jobs until like we celebrated that at my funeral. So, uh, that being said, he, he also was still there as my coach. So I was open and honest about like, Hey, this is growing. Hey, I’m working these nights. Hey, I need, I need to talk to you about this in my check-ins. And then there was coaching, just like there was coaching when I led the first church adoption for Emmanuel. I still have my coach with me all the time in it.

Rachel Long — So it wasn’t ever like this chomp. It was more like, okay, I’m feeling this. Okay. Let’s separate and pray about it for a couple of weeks. We come back. Okay. This is happening. Then he went on a study break. And so that gave us more time to think and pray and come back and talk about it. And it wasn’t, it wasn’t an abrupt quit and it wasn’t a quiet quit. It wasn’t, he helped transition me off of staff and launch me into what God was building in our lives. And I think that takes a leader that has a bigger than themselves vision, like a kingdom mindset. And it takes an employee that um that knows that even though it’s going to be hard and you’re going to have to make space for the conversations, you got to tell the truth when you know it, as soon as you know it.

Rachel Long — Yeah, I would say that um there was also some coaching around that too, like, okay, let’s look at this. Because at that point, your pastor’s looking into your life as this third party, you know, and but still with you in it. And they’re able to see some things that maybe you aren’t able to see. But none of it would have happened if I worked under a spirit of fear or like as an employee, if I didn’t feel psychologically safe to say what I needed to say, then that…

Rich Birch — Okay. Let’s talk about that issue. Because I don’t think there’s any—this is a part of, I think, with the tension in this—I don’t think there’s any lead pastor out there that believes that they’re cultivating an environment that is psychologically unsafe. They all say, every lead pastor, and I love the lead pastors who are listening in, everyone, we all believe that we create these positive work environments that actually, of course, just come to me, tell me anytime I’m happy to. But that isn’t actually what happens.

Rich Birch — When you think about Danny’s leadership, and then Danny, I’m going to ask you kind of the mirror of this question. But when you think about his leadership, Rachel, what was it that indicated, Oh, he actually means this. Like he actually wants to have the conversation. He doesn’t just say, Oh, let tell me, cause I think there’s lots of pastors that would say that. Oh no, come and talk to me. But actually everyone knows now that isn’t what we should do. What was it about Danny’s leadership that led you to believe, oh, he actually wants to engage on this conversation. He’s not he’s not scared of this.

Rachel Long — Oh it’s future behavior is predicted by past behavior. The only time that we’ve had issues that were significant in departures, there was always a chance for that individual to leave well. There was always a chance.

Rich Birch — Right.

Rachel Long — There was always an opportunity for that…

Rich Birch — They chose not to for whatever reason.

Rachel Long — Yes, you’re correct.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Okay. Yep.

Rachel Long — You also have to be the employee that knows that like you’re not working for a robot. You’re working for a pastor. Like they love their congregation. And so when you come to them with something hard, if you got to give them space to be a human too. I mean, like but you can’t just expect, oh, that’s what you want to do here. Let me write a a plan with you. I mean, there is back and forth.

Rachel Long — So I feel like I watched the behavior. I mean, when my brother died, he and his wife drove an hour and a half to go be at the funeral when I was one of his volunteers in youth ministry.

Rich Birch — Right.

Rachel Long — That’s not a person who’s going to say: Get out. This is dumb. What are you doing?

Rich Birch — At your desk!

Rachel Long — Like you’re fired; get out.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah.

Rachel Long — You know, like that’s nobody’s taking a cardboard box with me when you when you have invested so much. As an employee you invest a lot in the church, but also your leaders are investing in you. And so he’d already invested in me, why would he not want to see like a kingdom return on that investment?

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Rachel Long — That was that’s how I felt safe in it.

Rich Birch — Sure.

Rachel Long — Because it was always about me more than my product.

Rich Birch — Right. Danny, I’d love to hear your perspective on that. Like the, you know, a part of the tension in, in these, I think in these transitions to be, obviously I was kind of kicking lead pastors there, but the reality of it is our, we’re consumed with the mission. We’re like, man, what we’re doing is, you know, is so important. And for, and I know you weren’t the founding pastor, but you, you’re a long time pastor, long term, long time lead pastor. It’s even more so with founding pastors. And I’ve said this to many founding pastors. I’m like, they, you care the most about this. This thing started in your living room.You know, and, and they, the thought that anyone else would ever want to transition. It’s not that they’re evil people. They just are like, love the the vision so much and the and our mission, there you cut them and they bleed it. And and so they give off, ah inadvertently, they give off this like, if you even think about it, I am you know I’ll be disappointed in you. Are there are there things that you’ve tried to do actively to try to cultivate a trust environment, to cultivate you know a ah place where people would be willing to kind of reach out and talk about it?

Danny Anderson — It’s a great question, Rich. I think that we’ve learned that each departure is a culture shaping event.

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.

Danny Anderson — And so if you, how did you handle the how how did you handle the last staff departure? Because staff members talk to each other they’re observing they’re watching…

Rich Birch — Yep. Yep. That’s true.

Danny Anderson — …and so they’re they’re actually learning the culture of whether or not it’s safe to talk about these things from the last experience.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Danny Anderson — And so I I after two or three poor, you know, departures. I’m like, man, um I think we don’t we don’t have a healthy culture. We don’t have a we don’t have a culture where, so I’ve got to change that. How do I change that? Well, you know, the the only way I knew is is to start having the conversation with people. And in my mind, I had to make a shift um from these people don’t belong to me, they belong to God.

Danny Anderson — I am I have to be open-handed with Rachel. Every senior pastor has has to be open-handed with their staff. They do not belong to me. But that’s really difficult because, especially if someone on your leadership team like like Rachel was such an integral part of everything we did at this church. I mean, she had her fingers in everything, almost. And, which was a good thing. And so when she and it even when she initially shared with me what she was feeling, I bucked it. I’m like, oh, no, that’s not true. That’s not what the Lord is doing.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Danny Anderson — You know, we got to rethink this.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Danny Anderson — You know, I’m not sensing that. You know, but so even when I told her that, I even felt after that conversation like, dude, who do you think you are? Like you’re not, you don’t own Rachel. And of course, the Holy Spirit was working on me. And and and so I had to I had to repent of that. Like, OK, Lord, these are like this this staff is your staff.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Danny Anderson — And I’m more interested in what you are calling them to do in their life…

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Danny Anderson — …than how they can help me to fulfill the vision of Emmanuel. And so I think a big decision is to decide in your heart to be open-handed with your staff…

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Danny Anderson — …and give literally surrender them over to God.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Danny Anderson —And I know that might sound mushy, and but but that is ah that is a conviction that you have to have. Or else you’re going to get mad. You’re going to get ticked off.

Rich Birch — Right. Yes.

Danny Anderson — You’re going to feel betrayed. And then you’re going to once they share it with you, you’re going to be like, OK, well, your last day is Friday. You know you you you’re screwing me.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Danny Anderson — So you know let’s let’s get you out of here as fast as possible.

Rich Birch — Let me bite back at you or whatever. Yeah.

Danny Anderson — Oh, man, it’s so so toxic.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Now let’s double click on that, Danny. I’m glad you brought it up because I’m I was like, there’s there were had to have been a moment where where, I’ll put it this way, it would have been natural at some point to have thought, no, I want to steer this conversation back to, let’s serve Emmanuel. Like, you know,

Rich Birch — Talk to us about that internal tension. How, what did that look like? How did you wrestle through that? And then, you know, then you probably, obviously you came to a place where you’re like, no, like, obviously I think this is probably the best for, for, for Rachel. And then ultimately the best for us. Like we, you know, we got to believe that the Lord is working this out somehow. Talk us through what did that transition look like? I’m assuming at some point you wanted to kind of steer that conversation back. How did you kind of weather that as a leader, Danny?

Danny Anderson — Well, I definitely tried. And and and that was part of what Rachel said. We we had several conversations, and we created space in between those conversations to…

Rich Birch — Yeah, great.

Danny Anderson — …you know I would I would say, hey, I think we could work this out. I don’t think it’s coming to an end.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Danny Anderson — You know let’s let’s let I gave her some thoughts. I gave her some ideas. And then I let her have space to pray about it with her husband. And and so but then when I realized you know that that the burden that God had put on her heart for children who’ve lost loved ones and the experience that she had with her own brother, like this this is the work that God is doing in her life.

Rich Birch — Right. Right. Yeah, that’s good.

Danny Anderson — And I if I stand in the way of that, I’m I’m blocking, you know, what God wants to do in her life. And I don’t want to be that guy.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Danny Anderson — And so I think I finally got it took me a while to get there, honestly.

Rich Birch — Right.

Danny Anderson — Because there is, Rachel knows this, there’s a lot of work to be done and where would it’s not a, so I did feel that like, oh gosh who’s gonna pick up who’s gonna pick up all the work that she’s leaving behind?

Rich Birch — Right. Right.

Danny Anderson — And so there was a bit of that you know, I guess the space, there’s a void there that t was left. But you know I had to trust God with that. You know like, okay, Lord, I’m going to trust that you’re going to provide other people. And other, you know.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Danny Anderson — So I just didn’t want to be that person that was blocking what God was doing in her heart, if that makes sense.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. I love that. I hope you’re listening in, leaders, today. I think what you’re leading us here, Danny, with even just the way you’re you’re reflecting on that.

Rich Birch — Rachel, what about you? How did you continue to lead? And you’re doing this in today’s conversation. So I’m I’m asking you to kind of think about this at a meta level. My my experience has been that you have continued obviously to honor Danny, to honor his leadership, to honor the place that you know he has had in your life and has in the community. Talk to us about some of those decisions, actions that you took through this process to continue to you know to honor the the place that that Danny’s had as a pastor and leader in your life.

Rachel Long — Wow. I don’t I don’t know that I could fully honor all that he taught me there. Every single day I have some leadership piece that I’m like, yes, I learned that at Emmanuel. I learned that from pastor Danny. But I will say something that I would want all senior pastors to hear that he did was, if I can, is that the beauty of how this transition went is like, I got to serve at Christmas at my church. And people were coming up to me asking me how my, the number one thing is how’s your project going? I love that. But how’s it going? How’s it… like people genuinely wanting to know how Joshua Center is.

Rachel Long — My son got to keep his youth group. My other two are adults and they live on their own. But my son, who’s still a junior in high school, gets to gets to still go to youth group and not feel awkward. So basically we got to keep our church because of this. So deciding early on that like, when when I left, there were two ah new multisites in the and the pot. They could choose which one was going to come next, or, you know, or based on how attendance and and things like that go, and availability of other churches to adopt.

Rachel Long — And so leaving feeling like okay, I’ve left our left my church in a good spot because it wasn’t just my pastor, it’s my church…

Rich Birch — Yep.

Rachel Long — …and I served there for ten years before I left. So really keeping focus like I want to honor Danny, but I want to honor Jesus.

Rich Birch — Right.

Rachel Long — I mean when I meet with him every morning if if at any point during this conversation I would have felt like I No, you did what, this was Abraham and Isaac moment. You did what I asked you to do. You don’t have to give up your job at Emmanuel, which by the way, I loved and still love my church. Then I I would have gone back and said…

Rich Birch — Right.

Rachel Long — You know, I think I was wrong. Oops. You know…

Rich Birch — Sure, sure.

Rachel Long — And I know there would have been grace and space to talk it through. But I think continuing to seek God’s will in it and and take the steps allows me not also to be a saboteur for for Emmanuel which I would love to see them reach, us – I’m still part of that’s still my church.

Rich Birch — Yes. Yes, yes.

Rachel Long — Like so I would love to see us reach our 12 campuses. That’s that’s still in my heart. And I think that’s something, I’ll stop in just a sec. I think that’s something the senior pastor needs to know is you’re still on vision, even if you’re in a different capacity.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Rachel Long — I live to see people come to Christ and grow in Christ.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Rachel Long — I’ve gotten to lead two kids to Christ in the counseling room with their parents there. Like there don’t negate that like that person might still be on vision, even though they don’t get the privilege of being on staff anymore.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Danny Anderson — Absolutely.

Rich Birch — Yeah, I can I can say that I’m I’m also attending a church that I was on staff at. And I’m like a volunteer. I was about to say just a volunteer, but I’m you know, I I actually it’s a privilege and honor to and I’ve you know, it’s fun to like stand back and be like I am a cheerleader and excited for that and excited for, you know, our leadership as we continue to move forward.

Rich Birch — Danny, what about you? What happened to the Rachel-sized hole in the organization? You know, like, you know, when a senior leader like this leaves, that that does create, you know, you’re being kind, but that can create a bit of chaos in the organization. Because it’s like, okay, well, every my experience has been, and I’m sure this is the case with Rachel, the little bit I know her. She’s incredibly competent and you know there in some ways the organization ends up getting built around these people. That you know that we kind of end up we massage the org chart and it’s like there really is one person that could do this job. Their name’s Rachel Long and that’s normal. I don’t think that’s bad. That’s a normal part of this process.

Rich Birch — So what did what did you do? How did the organization shift? What happened? Because I think it’s actually an interesting opportunity to think about it more from the positive side. Hey, we can make some changes here. We can look at this in a slightly different way. What happened in that you know, after Rachel stepped out?

Danny Anderson — Yeah, so we’re in that right now. Still, it hasn’t been that long. So I think one of the indicators of how good a leader is, is what happens when they leave.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Danny Anderson — And you know, Rachel had three people that were reported to her directly: Allison, Aaron, and Cody. And those three people carry a ah heavy heavy lift across our entire church. And she led our church basically through them and others, but those were the three the three big players. And so those those team team members report directly to me for now. And it’s actually been it hasn’t been easy but it’s been it’s been delightful to learn like, okay these guys, like Allison’s incredible. Aaron Beasley’s a hustler, and you know Pastor Cody will do he’ll he’ll run through a wall for you. And so Rachel has she did there is a gap but there’s people there that are able to do the work. So so right now, I I have stepped into her role. It’s temporary until we until I can find another executive leader, but it hasn’t been chaos. It’s like, holy cow, what’s going on?

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Danny Anderson — It hasn’t been that way. And so, Rachel, I don’t know if I haven’t had a chance to tell you this, but they those guys are killing it. And and I…

Rachel Long — I love it.

Danny Anderson — …and I attribute that to you training them, empowering them, building them…

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Danny Anderson — …giving them confidence. And so, ah yeah, it’s it’s it’s pretty cool right now what’s going on.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool. The the way I hear that, it Rachel, is that he replaced you with three people. That’s the way I hear it. But you know. The work that used to be done by Rachel is now done by three people. That’s what I hear.

Rich Birch — Rachel, kind of pivoting in a slightly different direction. It’s related, but it’s kind of in the neighborhood of this conversation. Let’s say I’m on staff at a church. I’m, you know, just give me a picture, a church of 1,500 people, maybe not quite as large as as you guys, but and I’m thinking, I’m thinking maybe I should reach out to my lead pastor. Maybe I’m an executive pastor. And I’m like, I’m I’m, I’m thinking the Lord might be leading me to this.

Rich Birch — I had someone recently say this to me and they were like, what should I do? Um, should I go and, and there’s probably more than two options, but should I go and start having, should I talk to Vanderbloemen first, or should I go and talk to my lead pastor? You know, what help us through that, navigate that conversation.

Rachel Long — Sure. Well, the first thing I think that you have to remember in this, as an employee, is it’s your responsibility to be authentic and to be following God’s leadership in your life first.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Rachel Long — It’s not your pastor’s responsibility to make sure you’re following what God has led you to do. And you’re not responsible for your pastor’s reaction to what you’re going to say.

Rachel Long — I think if you come in there, like Joshua Center was never an exit strategy.

Rich Birch — Right.

Rachel Long — So if you come into a situation and you’re like, Hey, I’ve got this exit strategy. I’m ready to, I felt this way. I’ve talked to these head hunters. I’m ready to go. I mean, that is one way to do it, but you have to understand you’re choosing a corporate path. You’re not choosing a church path. And so, although we have a business to run inside a church to be good stewards, we are not a corporation in that manner.

Rich Birch — Good. Yep.

Rachel Long — So there has to be space to prayfully consider it, seek wise counsel, like you would for anything as an executive pastor. And then you have to have the courage, the courage is in the telling.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Rachel Long — And then knowing that you’re telling this to a human, that you could be hurting them…

Rich Birch — Yep.

Rachel Long — …and God’s plan could be hurtful to them. So leave space for that.

Rich Birch — Right.

Rachel Long — You would leave space if you were counseling a couple and you had to tell them something hard.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Rachel Long — You would leave space if you were telling something hard to an employee you manage. So, I mean, pastors are people. Your lead pastor’s a person. But you have to act in your own integrity in it.

Rich Birch — Right.

Rachel Long — And and I wouldn’t say that I did that perfectly. I would say that there were pieces of the coaching that were super helpful to bring clarity. So if your pastor is for you and they’re seeking God’s will for like their staff, then then you’re going to get some more clarity in this.

Rachel Long — Because we always think like, oh, it could go so terribly wrong. But what if it goes…

Rich Birch — What if it’s a go terribly great?

Rachel Long — …like hard, but good. Yeah.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Rachel Long — Yeah.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah.

Rachel Long — It doesn’t have to be easy. This has not been easy. I miss my staff every day.

Rich Birch — Yep. Yep. Yeah, that’s good.

Rachel Long — Every day.

Danny Anderson — We miss you too.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. That’s good coaching. Because I think there are people who sit on this conversation and and are thinking like, hmm, you know, like, I don’t know, like I’m I’m feeling, I’m sensing the Lord might be moving me on, but I just don’t know what to do with that feeling. I don’t know what to do with that sense. And…

Rachel Long — Sure.

Rich Birch — and yeah, I think having the bravery to say like, Hey, I want to talk about this. But then also giving space. I think that’s a good word there, Rachel, like giving space to be like, Hey, this may not go well. This may be, and that’s okay…

Rachel Long — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …but just because it won’t go well, doesn’t mean you shouldn’t do it.

Rachel Long — Yeah

Rich Birch — Danny, what about you? So you yeah maybe there’s a, maybe you’re a lead pastor and you sense that there might be somebody on your team that is thinking about this. And maybe it’s just through, like, this is a unique situation because, you know, Rachel had, which I understand, folks that are listening in. Rachel had been working on this. It’s obviously an incredible passion project. And so in some ways you could kind of see that, but what would you say to a lead pastor who sees something like this bubbling in their team with a senior leader, somebody, you know, like an executive pastor type person?

Danny Anderson — Yeah, I mean, I think that senior leaders, can they have an intuition about this stuff. You can see you could see some things ahead, otherwise you wouldn’t be the lead pastor.

Rich Birch — Right. Yes.

Danny Anderson — And so I think you when you when you sense that, I think it’s it’s appropriate to start the conversation…

Rich Birch — Right.

Danny Anderson — …to initiate the conversation and let the person know on the front, I am for you personally.

Rich Birch — Right. Right.

Danny Anderson — I am I am I am more passionate about you as a person than the product you produce for the church. And and you have to mean that and in in the core of your being. And that’s hard because we’re pastors, as you’ve already mentioned, Rich. We’re so focused on the work product and the productivity and the loss of the productivity, if this person should leave. And who’s going to fill that gap? And that’s going to cause, you know oh my gosh, do we have enough money? Like what where we…

Danny Anderson — There’s all kinds of things that that happen. But you have to you have to get in a mental space, in a spiritual space, where it’s like, Lord, I care about this person. I truly want to shepherd them through this process. And I want to be for them. I want to help i want to help them.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Danny Anderson — God, if you have something else for this person, let me be part of helping them get to that space.

Rich Birch — Right.

Danny Anderson — I mean, and that’s our jobs as pastors. We’re we’re trying to take people from where they are to where God wants them to be…

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Danny Anderson — …in every aspect of their life.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Danny Anderson — And so why would that be any different for Rachel or anybody else on my team? It’s like, hey, let me be part of the solution with you. I love you. And, and so that. And now if you’re not there, you got to get there. Because that’s the ball game.

Rich Birch — Right, right, right.

Danny Anderson — If you, if if that’s not true about you, you’ve got to kind of mature into that space. And, you know, I don’t know what to say to a person who’s not in that space, you know, other than you got to get there.

Rich Birch — Right, right. Yeah, that’s good. Well, and it feels like um this, if you’re a lead pastor listening in today, or you’re any, we’re using that as the framework, but it could be any, so any person that oversees people. And you suspect that you don’t have the kind of relationship where someone would come to you, that that’s the place to start. It’s like, oh, okay, we’ve got to have a lot of that. What’s it like to be on the other side of me conversations?

Danny Anderson — Oh yeah.

Rich Birch — How, how can I grow? And what, you know, how can I serve you better? And what, because if you sense that your people aren’t, are so afraid to talk to you about this, then it’s like, we’re on a whole bunch of fronts, we’re losing already, right? We’re already behind the eight ball and we’re not able to, you know, necessarily live out the vision that God’s called us to. That’s good.

Danny Anderson — Rich, I would I would also say, I know we’re coming down to the stretch here, but I would also say the pastors have to understand that that fear is there. It is there.

Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.

Danny Anderson — So it’s not like, is it you don’t have to wonder, it’s just there.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Danny Anderson — So you have to be the one to to to alleviate that.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Danny Anderson — And I would even go as far as to say that senior pastors should teach should do a staff development on this with their team.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Danny Anderson — Like devote a whole staff meeting. Like, hey, I’m gonna I’m gonna do 35 minutes of teaching on how do you leave well from our organization. And here’s my heart on the issue. And that, I mean, just coming from you in a staff meeting, that would be so, that’s setting the culture. That’s not gonna solve it necessarily, but it’s definitely gonna make it a little bit easier ah to that conversation.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, that’s so good. We wedid an interview a number of years ago with Jesse DeYoung from Flatirons. And they, Flatirons had a moment where um they actually asked their people if they would like to step off their team.

Danny Anderson — Wow.

Rich Birch — They provided, it was they kind of, it was during COVID and they they said like, hey, we would like, and I forget the number, but it was like 30 or 40% of their staff raised their hand and were like, yes. And that led them to this massive cultural change that they that they led through. And it was like, it was a a concrete moment when they realized, oh my goodness, there’s a large portion of our people would prefer not to work here than to work here. And but now on the back end of that, and they would say, man, God has used that transition.

Rich Birch — And I’m not saying you should do that, but but that idea of us going first and leading and raising the hand and saying, hey, we want to make this the best place for you, the healthiest place for you to to work at, which in this case, in the context of this conversation means you should be able to raise this conversation and not be in fear of it. That’s so good.

Rich Birch — Well, as we come down to land, um why don’t we do kind of last words, Rachel, what would be your last piece of advice? Maybe for somebody from your seat that’s sitting in an organization thinking the Lord might, you know, have something for them. What would you say to them? And then Danny, same thing. But then the reverse of that from your seat.

Rachel Long — Well, this is going to be a churchy answer. You need to pray through this. You need to fast over it.

Rich Birch — That’s good. Yep.

Rachel Long — You need to seek wise counsel…

Rich Birch — Yes.

Rachel Long — …and you need to do what you know you’ve been instructed to do in your own life. Because again, you don’t know if this is Abraham and Isaac moment, or you don’t know if this is Esther – at such a time as this. You don’t know. So and then I would say engage your leadership as soon as you can. I would have probably, if I had it to do over, have engaged even sooner with my leadership because…

Rich Birch — Oh that’s good.

Rachel Long — Engage them as soon as you can.

Rich Birch — That’s good. That’s a good little piece of advice there. Like, Hey, that’s a good nugget here at the end of that. Like if anything, default towards early is, you know, the way I would say that. Let’s get the conversation out there rather than, you know, don’t get so far down the road that it’s like, you’ve already decided you get one foot out the door. Let’s have the conversation early. That’s good. I like that.

Rich Birch — Danny, what about you from, from your seat as a, as a lead pastor?

Danny Anderson —Yeah, I mean, just a closing thought. I again, I guess I’ve already said this, but you know put put your people in God’s hands. They belong to him. They’re not yours. They’re, God has loaned them to you for a period. Everybody’s an interim pastor. My friend, Shawn Lovejoy says that. And so hold them loosely, love them well. And when it’s time for them to move on, be their biggest advocate. You know, just go go to bat for them and honor them. You just can’t go wrong with that.

Danny Anderson — And then I’ll the last thing I’ll say, Rich, is that for for senior leaders listening, ministry leaders, executive pastors listening, I guarantee you, guarantee you right now on your team, there’s two or three people that need to have this conversation, right now.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Danny Anderson — And not and they’re not having it because they don’t have permission.

Rich Birch — Right.

Danny Anderson — And so I would I would act immediately…

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Danny Anderson — …and because it’s it’s real. And so anyway, just put that little thought in people’s minds there. They need to take action quickly.

Rich Birch — That’s good. That’s a good nugget again, a great nugget at the end here. Hey, like the next all staff meeting, we should be talking about this. I should, I should reference this. You know, we need to create this kind of culture. That’s, that’s fantastic. Well, this is great.

Rich Birch — Rachel, where do we want people? We’ve got past episodes we’ll link to that you’ve been on. But where, if people want to get in touch with you, kind of track with what you’re up to these days, where’s that? And then the same with you, Danny. Where do we want to, what do we want to let let people know about on on each of your sides? Start with you, Rachel.

Rachel Long — You can go to joshuacenter.org, very simple, joshuacenter.org. And if you want to email me rachel at joshuacenter.org, you’ll find everything we’re doing there and what the organization is about, upcoming events, information, everything’s there.

Rich Birch — Love it. What about you, Danny?

Danny Anderson — Yeah, you guys can check check things out on Instagram @dannyanderson23. I also have a podcast, Church Growth Unleashed. Rich, you’ve been ah an honored guest on that podcast. And also just wanted to let people know that we’re doing a leadership conference, Church Growth Leadership Conference in September. And Rich, you’re gonna be there.

Rich Birch — Love it. Looking forward to it.

Danny Anderson — It’s very, very exciting. You’ll be one of our breakout speakers. So if people are interested in that, they can find that at Church Growth Unleashed. I think there’s a new website that just came out for that. So yeah, it’s pretty exciting.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. That’s churchgrowthunleashed.org. You should check that out. It really will be a great, it’s gonna be a great conference. The lineup’s amazing. Except for me, somehow I squeaked in. So I’m excited to be there. That’ll be fun and to be there for sure.

Rich Birch — So thanks so much, friends. I appreciate you being here. Thanks for what you’re doing and just want to honor you for the good things that have happened in this transition. Take care, friends.

Danny Anderson — Thank you, Rich.

Rachel Long — Thank you.