Gender Identity and Medical Ethics

In this episode, the hosts delve into the controversial topic of medical gender transitions and puberty blockers for children, comparing them to past medical fads like lobotomies. They discuss the historical context, patient outcomes, and the cultural and ethical implications of these practices. The conversation highlights the issues surrounding informed consent, the pressure on doctors and patients, and the potential long-term effects. The hosts draw parallels with other societal phenomena and express concerns about the role of therapists and the medical industry. The episode concludes with predictions on how societal trends may evolve and the potential for future scandals in the psychiatric field.

Speaker: [00:00:00] The lobotomite returns! What insidious plan can it have brewing in its horrid mind? What commie, anti American propaganda will it spew?

Malcolm Collins: Hello, Simone. Today, we're going to be discussing an interesting topic that's been nagging at the back of my brain for a while now. Say that. I think we are at a point in history now where basically everyone who is like super cute into the data, everyone who's super cute into the most modern studies, the most modern statistics where culture is flowing knows that the.

medical gender transition phenomenon and the child puberty blocking phenomenon are both going to be seen as well mistakes in the way a lot of fads historically in medicine were seen as mistakes.

Is the holy guide to living pure, this will help [00:01:00] explain. First, Laughter. Oh. You're not

An oppressed minority. you're a cult!

Malcolm Collins: There was a phenomenon of hypnosis and bringing back old memories. Oh, this is great. This is so cool for a while.

Then everyone was like, Oh, we got a bunch of people to accuse their parents of grapes that definitely didn't happen. And now those parents have spent their lives in jail and people have been permanently broken from their families. And this was a horrible thing. How, why did nobody call attention to this earlier?

This is, this is recent. This is like the eighties, you know, we, we,

Simone Collins: you

Malcolm Collins: know, we, this sort of stuff happens all the time, but I think the most famous instance of it happening is lobotomies. Right. Lobotomies were very popular. Even the Kennedys did it.

If that iteration of the Kennedy family were around today, would they not be the first in line to transition their daughter?

And [00:02:00] then we came to realize, Oh, this is actually horrifying and does not help the people who we're doing it to.

And just so people understand 20, 000 people went through lobotomies at some point.

Simone Collins: It wasn't one big proponent of it who would even

Malcolm Collins: lobotomize

Simone Collins: people

Malcolm Collins: on stage. Well, yeah, the guy who invented it, the neurologist, Ergos Monod, got the Nobel Prize for inventing it. No way! He got the Nobel Prize? People don't understand when they're like, no, lobotomies were never as celebrated as gender transitions today.

Oh, no, they definitely, definitely were as celebrated as gender transitions. This

Simone Collins: undermines my trust in the Nobel Prize right

Malcolm Collins: now. Well, here's the other interesting thing. A lot of people will be like, well, Yeah, but they're hugely different. Lobotomies weren't done with consent. Actually, lobotomies were almost never done without consent.

Lobotomies were done with informed consent. Really? The problem is, is they were just very [00:03:00] bad at informing the people. The

Simone Collins: information was bad, or the delivery of the informed consent was bad?

Malcolm Collins: The delivery of the, so For example, people would be like, Oh, well, we know now from the leaks around the the WPATH files, for example, that it's very common in the doctors who are doing these procedures know that most people who are getting them do not understand the consequences of them.

Oh, yeah. Like they're not aware

Simone Collins: of like higher risk of osteoporosis. You may never have an orgasm like all these things. They haven't been warned about. Like they don't understand that

Malcolm Collins: they're going to be sterilized. Right? A lot of people think it's just totally reversible.

So some lines we have here and endocrinologists stated. I know I'm talking to a blink wall in private emails. And another one pointed out that they knew that they were quote, robbing these kids at this sort of early to mid puberty sexual stuff.

That's happening with her sister and your peers. In quote, and then in another instance where they thought that they could just transition back and forth whenever they felt [00:04:00] like it. , they said, quote, They seem to feel that there should be allowed to switch it back and forth merely at their request in quote. , showing that it was very clear, they didn't understand this was a permanent thing.

But more broadly. And this is very clear from a lot of people who, you know, hit like the age of 23 and are like, I want to turn back. It's simply neither communicated to them. . They can't just turn back whenever they want.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Or yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You can just you're just delaying.

You're just delaying nothing. Nothing bad is. Yeah, you're right. Okay. So the problem is there has been information given, but the information is highly incomplete.

Malcolm Collins: Well, and what's also been shown is because there's been such a bubble around persecuting clinics that do gender transition. If you watch interviews with detransitioners about their, like their indoctrination, I guess you could say interviews for the transition is the doctors will like, tell them very little of what's actually happening and just talk about how amazing it's going to be and everything like that.

When it's an advanced thing, it's [00:05:00] It's a very invasive medical procedure that often ends with you know, the, the, the new organs undergrowing necrosis and other forms of like, yeah, they genuinely begin to like rot on their body, but of course they would like, this isn't like an easy thing to do.

Simone Collins: Yeah, hearing, hearing about the complications from surgery and just the recovery, like drainage ports and all sorts of like, this is stuff that.

If you heard it out of context, you would think that they, you know, had just undergone like major tumor removal or like some kind of like cancer. Yeah. And I

Malcolm Collins: think a lot of people who casually support gender transition today and are like, Oh, you'd be more trans people if it was more, you know, accepted by mainstream.

I think that they feel this way because they haven't actually investigated like the actual what happens after gender transition what the surgeries are actually doing or what people are being told before [00:06:00] they go into these surgeries. And that if they did what they would realize, is it a lot of this is about doctors that are trying to make a quick buck.

It's about psychologists who are scared to say anything against the community because they're very aggressive about this. The Horror, and I think the thing that turned me the most against this, I mentioned this in another episode, but it's really important to note, this has never existed before in human history.

I believed going into this, because they were like, oh, Two Spirit, and there's this thing in Indonesia, and there's this thing here, and then when I actually went into it, I was like, wait a second. No, these are just different gender presentations. Nowhere in human history is there a sudden obsession with the gender that you're seen as and the desire to conform to that gender?

And they're like, no, actually, actually, there is one culture that does castrate people who have this alternate gender perception. And I'm like, oh, where is that? Oh, it's this group in India that's mostly used for, For poor kids who are [00:07:00] kicked out of their family and need some a way to support themselves.

And so they go into sex work that does not that sounds like calling as I mentioned like castranos. These are people who were castrated so they could continue to sing at a high pitch In early europe trans like it's it's clearly not the same phenomenon and when I realized that like this is a phenomenon that has never existed before in human history and has a 50 attempted unaliving oneself rate.

I was just like You Oh, like this is just obviously like a bad memetic contagion that needs to be stopped or a lot of innocent people are going to suffer. If you're like, no, no, I really feel it. It's like, yeah, but like I've known anorexic people and we also know that anorexic is the same category of a medic contagion.

What I mean here is anorexia also appears to be a culturally driven disease and not a real one that we see in history. but that doesn't mean that people who have it don't want a hundred percent believe what they're saying and if you could stop it from spreading, like the idea, the mimetic contagion from spreading, of course you would do [00:08:00] everything you could to stop it. But so then my question is like, how is this going to end? What would it ending look like? Let's look at lobotomies, a very analogous procedure. So,

the last recorded lobotomy in the United States was performed by Dr. Walton Freeman in February 1967. The procedure was carried out on Helen Mortenson, a long time patient of hers, and this was her third lobotomy. She died of a hemorrhage Whoa, people were getting multiple lobotomies? Right, so this was at her request and her third lobotomy.

This is very similar to when people are like, Oh, people weren't like addicted to lobotomies. Oh, yes, they were. People are like, oh, like, there's not trans people who think they can just like get the procedure when they're like young and under eight, which is what a lot of these people who don't understand what they're going into from the WPATH files, and then transition back to the other gender.

No. I mean, what is the D transition movement? If not that in a, in a big way, we're like, Oh, I transition, I'm transitioning back, Oh, maybe I'll transition back later. And it's, [00:09:00] it's seen in these emails that have been leaked that a lot of people didn't understand. You can't just transition, transition back, transition, transition back, whatever you feel like it.

And that's where lobotomies had gotten to when they ended up being. As for when the lobotomy of the Kennedy happened this happened in 1941 when she was 23 years old. The controversial procedure was arranged by her father, Joseph P. Kennedy Sr., without informing his wife until after it had been completed.

The procedure led to Rosemary being permanently incapacitated, unable to speak intelligently, and with the mental capacity of a toddler. She lived in a mental facility for the rest of her life.

So, why did the tide turn against lobotomies? Poor patient outcomes. As more lobotomies were performed, the devastating side effects became increasingly apparent. And I think that this is what we'll see with gender transition as more people begin to speak publicly. About the smell of rotting flesh that comes from their [00:10:00] genitals about the other, because this is the key problem was gender transition as it's observed by the general public today is we are seeing it primarily from influencers in the euphoria phase, which is generally recorded as almost everyone has immediately after you transition.

Even the people who really regret it have a euphoria phase because the chemicals that you're taking create a euphoria phase. The, you know, if you're not used to taking lots of estrogen or loss of testosterone, it will create a phase of short term euphoria for about like a year and a half period before the dread sets in.

Second is that the moment somebody you know, I was recently at the heritage foundation gender research summit and talking with a lot of G transitioners and they're like, yeah, I get threats on my life constantly for talking about just Like my lived experience. Right? And that you're, you're just not going to get this if you're doing the opposite thing, you know, if you're out there celebrating this [00:11:00] and then you have the final problem, which I think is the biggest problem with gender transition right now is a lot of the gender transition stars are using filters.

And so the general public doesn't know what they really look like. They don't know how rare it is for somebody to actually pass. And so they look at someone like Dylan Mulvaney. And if you look at, for example, a Dylan Mulvaney was out filters. She looks like a guy. She, she looks very strange. She does not look like a woman, but if you look at her with filters, you're like, oh, that's a very normal looking woman.

And I think that a lot of people don't realize How rare passing is and if they understood or internalized this this would be much rarer than it is. The other thing that happened was the development of antipsychotic medications. The introduction of chlorazepine thorapine in the 1950s provided a safer non invasive alternative for treating mental illness.

And fortunately we already know [00:12:00] that for gender dysphoria antipsychotics actually work they're incredibly effective at dealing with it. We're just not allowed to talk about this yet, but I think as people begin to understand just how high the rates of genuine regret are when you're not being tormented and terrified by your community this is going to become more common, especially among people who are pressured into doing this when they're kids.

And as we know from the study gender, What is it? Gender discontentedness and nonconforming youth over nine out of 10 of the 11 year olds who want to transition do not want to like are perfectly happy with their birth gender by the age of 23. And we also know now that hormone. Like the purity blockers that they take they have a significant effect on IQ.

We've seen this in animal models is about a one standard deviation decline. You can't just like stop somebody's mental development. Like, of course, anyone should have known that.

I think that the trans community is acting in bad faith can be seen by the types of arguments they use. [00:13:00] Like, one of the things that they'll frequently say is, oh, puberty, blockers have been used forever in young people. And lots of studies have been done. It's like, yes, they've been used forever in delaying precocious puberty.

That's puberty happening outside of the correct developmental frame. Of course, if somebody is developing with the correct developmental frame, however you achieve that with puberty blockers or without, they will have. Normal and correct mental development. If you disrupt that frame. By either allowing them to happen too early or too late, you are going to get. Abnormal mental development because they, lot of mental development happens queued to those hormones.

And they have a significant effect on most people who get them are infertile and this has even been leaked in the emails that have been claimed through FOIA requests now that the doctors who are giving them know that they're functionally sterilizing people, but they're just like, yeah, but it's not that big a deal.

And we're getting paid for this. And I want to support this and blah, blah, blah. But a lot of this is being. [00:14:00] covered up is just how bad this stuff is. Or I mean, one of the things that always got me the most was the Travis Doc files when they were released. And it turned out that Travis Doc knew that putting someone on puberty blockers increased suicidality, but they were covering that up.

So yeah, not great all around. Like the data is super, super, super, super, super against us at this point to anyone who's looking at it from like not a brainwashed perspective. And we, we've drawn the correlation between this and anorexia before. And you know, knowing people with anorexia in the past, I understand like, if you bring an anorexic like data, like you see you're unhealthy, you see you're less attractive.

They just won't listen to it. It's very hard to get through when somebody develops this sort of obsession around.

Speaker 4: I was just fine until you all decided to teach me a lesson by scheming against me.

Now even my boss says I have a weight problem!

Speaker 2: You do have a weight problem! But it's not that you're too fat! ? You keep thinking you're fat no matter how skinny you get!

Speaker 4: That's ridiculous! Look at me!

Speaker 2: It's worse than [00:15:00] we thought!

Speaker 4: I know! I'm a huge tub of lard!

Speaker 2: No, you aren't! You're just suffering from a delusional state! Delusional? I'm not delusional!

Speaker 4: Zack! Bro, don't listen to them. Stan, there's no one there. Who are

z Man, this is Francine, , my daughter Haley. I know, I know, but she won't wear makeup.

Malcolm Collins: Also,

Simone Collins: I want to understand what, how do anti psychotics help with this? Is there any reason why they help?

Malcolm Collins: My understanding is because it's a form of psychosis. I mean, that's the truth of it.

Like the, the as we argued in the other video, if you look, it's very similar to anorexia in a lot of the ways it presents. It presents overwhelmingly in autistic individuals. It presents a similar race. It doesn't appear in other cultures. It appears to be a culture bound illness, like belief in penis stealing or something like that.

And that this sort of obsession that you would see in anorexia I would imagine is also pretty well dealt with by antipsychotics. Where the moment you. put [00:16:00] someone's brain on this and you stop this sort of magical or obsessive thinking.

I checked and yes, anti-psychotics have been used for the treatment of anorexia as well.

It appeared through just very good at. Curing this type of delusional thinking.

Keep in mind, antipsychotics are hard drugs. They do bad things to you.

But breaking somebody out of something that has a 50 percent attempted on aliving oneself rate, like, that's an easy choice. That's an easy, easy, easy choice. Yeah. I wonder if

Simone Collins: antipsychotics have also been used to treat anorexia. Now I'm going to have to look that up. I'm quite curious.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. The other thing that led to them being right is, is a medical professionals begin to turn against it as early as 1941.

You saw them. So we're still looking 30 years before like the last procedure is performed, but I think that that's where we're getting it now is 20 to 30 years before these procedures stopped being performed and we understand that the correct way to deal with this is just be more. Accepting of gender non conforming behavior and identities, instead of an obsession and giving a psychological [00:17:00] license to an obsession around what gender you are seen as.

Which is the real weird thing. I don't mind gender non conformity. I mind this thing that's leading to all of these deaths. There was ethical concerns an invasive and irreversible procedure performed overwhelmingly on vulnerable populations like children and women. Oh, wow. That reminds me of something.

The psychiatric survivors movement former patients begin to organize and speak against the psychiatric treatments. Oh my god, that that reminds me of something. The soviet ban. Now this was really big in 1950 The soviet ban lobotomy is declaring them contrary to the principles of humanity. I think that we'll see.

The uk for example has already began to move against this stuff. With the Oh, what was that big report that was done recently?

The cath review. So we're already beginning to see. , major developed countries that had been accepting of this move against it now.

Then you had

The james watson event where somebody died horribly from this. I think we're going to see this more and [00:18:00] more like the daughter who was taken from her mother. This was a daughter in terms that she had transitioned I think into a woman or maybe she transitioned to a man. I don't remember but she was taken from her mother because the mother said, I do not support this and I think that this is bad for her.

And then and keep in mind, I don't know what her actual gender was or what her transgender was. She was taken to live, was at a young age a foster family. And if you don't know this, by the way, the foster system now is like a really intense among, you cannot be a foster parent if you don't gender affirm.

So a lot of people are having to lie about this because, you know, most foster parents used to be like, you know, conservative Christians. And so this is a huge problem for the industry at the moment. And you're not going to get as many foster parents as you used to get. But anyway so, the girl ended up going into the system.

It turned out the mom was right. She ended up wanting to go back as she ended up going to the mom one last time or having a talk with her. And so she ended up jumping in front of a train. Like the horror of this, we are already seeing.

You were just [00:19:00] not informed of these stories because of the old system that was in place. But in multiple States, like in New Jersey, right next to us, if one of our kids begins to be taken in by one of these grooming gangs they, and they are grooming gangs, they target autistic kids.

it's genuinely really good grooming advice. On April 4th, 2023, Postcard reveals he's in contact with four minors. Age 9 to 13. I've so far sent it to four minors between the ages of 9 and 13. I hope it encourages them to transition. When the Anka Zone animation became a meme, they got excited over its virality among kids. Mana Drain and Orion also fantasized about getting kids on hormones orion was the manager , coercing him every step of the way. This is apparent by how he talked about him to others. Has he started hormones yet? Yes, but not effectively. I guess that's what you'd expect just telling a r to buy hormones. They bought estrogen, but no anti androgen. It would have been more fun if he started hormone blockers at like 12.

Haha, isn't that true for everyone? Don't worry, I'll make him into a good girl Don't blow up our spot, bro. All t slurs are like that. You can trust me [00:20:00] around your kid. It'd be transphobic not to. Me with daycare tots. To Orion, and many of his associates, their identity was little more than a political shield.

Malcolm Collins: They like have lists like this kid looks susceptible.

They will incept them with behavior that is alienating. If you, if you get a person to do something that alienates them from mainstream society and their parents, that is a key part of grooming. Like to call this not grooming is just absurd at this point. It is definitionally grooming. If you incept somebody with a behavior pattern that makes it so only people of your group will accept them.

So, if they get targeted by one of these grooming games in New Jersey, the state and the school has a mandate to spend state money on lawyers to take that kid away from their parents. And so as we begin to see more and more of these horrific events happening we're going to see more and more.

I think rollback of a lot of this stuff because it's just so demonstrable at this point and it's one of these things that for a long time like I was really scared to take this position and be like No, this is like I I took it like [00:21:00] flirtingly but when I begin to actually meet with lots of detransitioners, which i've met with a lot more now I'm now like oh god, like this is actual humans that this is being done to um Well,

Simone Collins: I think also our larger stance on gender transition in general is that it's a, the whole thing is a delusion.

Like this concept that gender is something that is important and people need to express and like take special actions to express is just a delusion. We, we, we don't need to exercise. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. You want to wear a dress, wear a dress. Like, but you don't, it's not a thing. Okay. I don't care.

And the fact that society makes it a big deal is this. this mass delusion, just like people having dancing sickness that we really need to drop because it is clearly causing major problems. And in throughout the past, people have done gender non conforming things. And it's just been like, it's [00:22:00] not a big deal.

And I always like we

Malcolm Collins: do gender non conforming things. Like I am, for example, more quigged out by killing like spiders and dealing with the dead mice and the rat traps and killing our chickens when they need to be killed. And Simone's like, I don't care, like whatever, but like, but she's not concerned with how she's gendered by other people who cover this for a while.

Simone Collins: Well, okay. Well, I'm going to suddenly start wearing pants or like, again, I always point to Louis the 14th, the King of France's brother. I think it was the Duc I'm obviously butchering that because we don't do French here, but like, people absolutely recognize the fact that he often dressed like a woman and that he had male lovers, and I think one person even, like, called him, like, the silliest woman I've ever met, you know, like, people would, but like, whatever, like, he did that, and then he would kick ass on the battlefield, and, like, it just, Sometimes people just did play, you know, just did different things and it just didn't, it just didn't matter that much.

And we didn't have to make a big deal of it.

Malcolm Collins: And I think that this is a [00:23:00] really good example because a lot of people are like, oh, Christianity, Catholicism, it doesn't allow different gender presentations. And it's like, actually that's like not really discussed in the Bible

That much.

and here we are talking about Louis. The 14th is brother, like one of the Heights of the Catholic empire. Will note here the old Testament. So some people consider the new Testament sort of invalidating these rules. Does have rules around gender presentation. , specifically Deuteronomy 22, 5, a woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man nor shall a man put on a woman's garbage for all who do so are an abomination to the Lord.

Your God. However, , if you're just looking. New Testament forwards. The only line you really have to go on is Corinthians. 11 14, 15, which states does not nature itself, teach you that if a man wears long hair, it did the disgrace for him. But if a woman has long hair, it is her glory, which seems like a fairly narrow statement there. And. We are [00:24:00] not saying here is that the genders on average do not have different presentations.

What we are saying is that the vast majority of cultures, even Christian cultures throughout history, Just didn't make a big deal about it when somebody didn't fall neatly into one of those presentations. And what is toxic about the current movement? Is an obsession with.

People who have abnormal gender presentations and forcing them to conform to, , either a gender binary or some sort of gender categorization scheme,

Simone Collins: and the fact that we're making a big deal of it is quite toxic.

Malcolm Collins: Really, obviously in the data, psychologically harmful.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. And so the bigger issue is the gender obsession, not making it a thing. Yeah. Making it a thing. And that, that is, that is where, and I wouldn't say it's just lobotomies.

You can even actually see this playing out somewhat. In the, the fillers issue, [00:25:00] and this is a more niche thing online, but I love following YouTube channels that comment heavily on like, plastic surgery and the work people had done. And you can absolutely see that there's this subset. of people in society who are also having like body dysphoria with regard to their faces, then they just think that like more filler is what they need.

More filler is better. And you can see these people who now have these incredibly deformed faces because they developed filler addictions and I could see, and it's almost like it's just, it's just There, there are lots of things here that rhyme, you know, in informed consent and, you know, being like, okay, well, I want more and I want more and more is better and obviously bad things happening as a result of it, and then a slow backlash.

I think there are lots of instances in which these things become a big deal. And. There are these shared societal delusions that can help contribute to that. That make it important to people.

Malcolm Collins: I think [00:26:00] for people who don't think that this is a big deal, you know, if you want to be shaken out of like, keep in mind, this is regularly people who will be supported by the community who are like, my four year old is, it needs to gender transition.

Like my also,

Simone Collins: and there are people who are like my four year old needs Botox and fillers. Like this thing It, this is a phenomenon that is not, we're not just dunking on transists.

Malcolm Collins: But no, no, but hold on, I want to, I want to talk about like how horrifying this is, for example, that there are women in Hollywood today and like we know of high profile cases of this, and of course this is happening in non high profile cases that are adopting kids from Africa, bringing them to the United States, then castrating them through like, gender transition when they're like 10 like that's kind of like racist in the most extreme way possible Where they are using them as like a human ornament to augment their own status within their communities Like oh, I need my my little castrated African boy um [00:27:00] No, it's fucked up.

And these people need to be treated like monsters because they're acting like monsters. That's a crazy thing to do. To take a little African child and castrate it. Well, it's It's crazy to do this with any child. I understand, but like, sometimes it's less monstrous if it's your own kid to me. Now, this actually happened really frequently with lobotomies as well, where like, when people were getting divorces and stuff, like, one person would be the pro lobotomy person, and one person would be the anti lobotomy person, and the pro lobotomy person would get custody.

Very similar to what you have with trans stuff here. No, I want to talk about the core thing that we don't have yet and that we are going to need to win this particular battle against these innocent people being victimized. Right? Which is media representation. That is what ended up killing lobotomies.

So we go over the big portrayals of this. You had Sylvia Plath's novel, The Bell Jar 1963, which depicted a lobotomized woman as [00:28:00] defeated and stripped of vitality. Then there was Tennessee Williams play suddenly last summer, 1958, which portrayed a lobotomy as a threat to vulnerable patients. But the real thing that did it was one flew over the cuckoo's last 1975 which solidified the perception of psychosurgery as a tool for controlling the mentally ill patients.

And the film won five major Academy awards in curating the best picture. I'd actually argue that the film probably did a net negative to society, even if it got rid of lobotomies. Because it ended the instant, the asylums, asylums. Yeah. Where Kennedy was like, I'm going to end asylums and I'm going to replace them with something better and more humane.

And he never replaced him. He just ended them. And then we ended up with our current homeless population, which is majority of the people who used to be in asylums. And it's caused a lot of negative externalities from that. But yeah, so I guess if you hear all of this And you know now that like most educated people see this as a social phenomenon Like I mentioned some people in our comments like trash scott alexander when we do videos where we're doing them They're [00:29:00] like, well, I trust you guys and like this other guy, but I don't trust scott alexander scott alexander a year ago like before us said 80 percent of gender dysphoria or of the trans phenomenon Is likely a social thing similar to which penis stealing and he did this in his which penis article.

It was hidden at the very end, but he wrote this. Nonetheless, he lives in an environment where this is an incredibly dangerous thing to say. He lives with friends where this is an incredibly dangerous thing to say. And he did it before we did. The amount of intellectual integrity that takes is absolutely astounding.

And I think that history is going to really favor him and, and people like him who stood up against this early. Whereas the people who are continuing to do this. I mean, the writing's already on the wall. The pendulum is full in the other direction at this point. After all of the leaks, we know that a lot of the studies that looked like this were good were faked.

A lot of the clinics [00:30:00] knew that this wasn't helping people. A lot of them knew they were lying to patients. Now the question is just When do you jump off the wagon? Like when do you say, Oh my God, I need to be on the right side of history on this particular issue. And I don't know, I don't know how you pressure, I guess the way you do that is you get people to look at the evidence.

Cause I think right now, like the evidence is so overwhelming. It's not like even lobotomies, like the evidence is like stronger than lobotomies at this point. Like this is hurting people. I mean, lobotomies didn't have a 50 percent suicide rate. You know, this is clearly like not helping people. But what are your thoughts broadly on this?

Simone Collins: I think it's going to be one of these things where in some communities, people will be shocked to learn that this is still happening. And others, this will continue to happen for quite some time. And I think there's just going to be a very weird staccato down stepping from this and it's going, it is going to take some, like, I think in, in many, in [00:31:00] many places, this is just going to, it's going to evaporate and we're going to move on to whatever the next thing is.

And I really wonder what the next thing is. I actually

Malcolm Collins: think I know exactly how this is going to play out. This is a major future telling.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: I think a because I've heard the stories about how the doctors who do gender transition essentially trick people into it by lying to them about the long term effects and the consequences.

Okay. I suspect a detransitioner is going to murder a gender transition doctor. Who tricked them into this or a gender transition, early psychiatrists who tricked them into this. And it's going to really highlight how predatory these practices are when the coverage ends up happening. And I think that that's going to lead to the media being like, Oh, we need to take this seriously.

Yeah. I mean, I just think that that's, that's the way this is going to play out. What do you think is

Simone Collins: going to be the next trans, the next lobotomy, the next addiction to fillers? Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, we were talking about it in another episode where I was like, Oh, this is definitely the next [00:32:00] trans.

Completely forgot what it was, but yeah, we had mentioned it in another episode. I was like, Oh, this is really effed up that this is happening right now. I think one of the big scandals that's going to happen is going to be the psychiatrist industry. Where we're going to learn that the modern psychiatrist today is basically a net damaging thing to the individuals they're interacting with.

Simone Collins: I can see that. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Both a heightening of the issue, like people doing more and more and more sessions with their therapists, like multiple times a week. And then there being some kind of public reckoning with that of. Oh my gosh! How is the fact that I'm seeing more of my therapist correlating with

Speaker 3: more of the crises?

Less mental health! Yeah,

Simone Collins: like, oh America's seeing, you know, therapists at a rate unprecedented, and that seems to track directly with the rates of mental health illness. What's happening now? You can

Malcolm Collins: see our video on, like, therapy. videos on that. One of the things I've [00:33:00] learned recently is I've been listening to people who are currently in the schools that are training our therapists.

And here's some examples of conversations that have happened in those schools. In one he was taught to treat, it's called Uncle Tom syndrome. Any African American who doesn't believe that they're discriminated against, you as a therapist are supposed to see that as a mental illness and help ensure that they see themselves as a more of a victimized class.

Huh! Before they leave your care. How, how is that a good thing? Then the other one that I thought was crazy is they in their class on marriage counseling, we're studying the ethical slut. This is a book on like, you know, polyamory and everything like that. And this guy Mentioned in class. He's like, well, and he thought this was a totally normal thing to mention.

I mean, I think we need to have a discussion about how I think monogamy might be better for some people. And apparently this was seen as like a really hateful thing to say, and that polyamory and getting over your jealousy of your partner sleeping with other people is just a more evolved form [00:34:00] of relationship.

And that the default for marriage counselors should be working all marriages towards an open marriage.

Simone Collins: That's it. That's that's very brave new world. There there are many conditioning sayings that exist in the Aldous Huxley book brave new world Like that have to actually it's it's very telling like among other things like they are constantly taking.

Medication called soma which I guess is kind of like You Xanax or like, it's just it keeps them calm. They're like a Soma in time saves nine or something like that. Like that's one of them. And then other things they have are like, I'm so glad I'm not a beta. Like just to keep you really glad.

You're so glad that you're not in some other class of society. I'm in every, like, I'm so glad I'm not an alpha. I'm so glad I'm not a beta. But then. There's another one of, I think the saying was like, everyone belongs to everyone else. And every time that someone started to get a little jealous or attached it was like, well, that's, that's a good sign that you need to start, you know, sleeping around with other people or like letting that partner go a little [00:35:00] more because everyone belongs to everyone else.

And then. I love that that

Malcolm Collins: was, that was treated as a dystopia, but like, that is, that is the world. It

Simone Collins: is really interesting how many elements of that book show up in society today. Like the massive use of sort of medication the, the massive use of entertainment, the, the, I guess, yeah, the increase in, in like non monogamy.

There are elements of it, though, that of course are very absent in, in that we are encouraging like class discomfort and status anxiety and, and everyone wants to be an alpha which is, you know, not, not causing a whole lot of happiness, of course. Well, a really

Malcolm Collins: interesting thing I heard about psychologists.

Recently, cause I was talking with some people who are in the psychology profession is they were saying that when Trump was elected, there was this big movement among psychologists to isolate themselves, like, because some psychologists were like, well, it's not so bad that he's [00:36:00] elected. Or like, we need to learn to deal with this.

And all of these people were like, hard. Yeah. You think

Simone Collins: this would be good for their industry? You know, it's like, well, now you got to see. They all have

Malcolm Collins: like trunch derangement syndrome. Like they're living in this alternate reality. And so they would form.

Simone Collins: In other words, they're taking it as bad as their

Malcolm Collins: patients are.

Yes. But no, they, they're literally experiencing like mental health episodes over just reality. And we can see that the psychological tools they have for dealing with reality are absolutely terrible. Like, they, they do not have any tools other than indoctrination. Somebody, the guy I was listening to who's in the psychology school, he's like, it's not like they're teaching psychology or good therapy practices.

And then on top of that, they are teaching woke ism. He's like, it's woke ism and complete fluff. It's nothing, but how do I, Yeah, the answer

Simone Collins: is woke ism. It's very much a cult at this point of like, Yes. And by the way, you're like,

Malcolm Collins: well, then what do I do if I'm experiencing issues? It's a pragmatist guide to life.

We wrote it as an alternate psychology [00:37:00] model. Lots of people have read it. I, we've had people tell us like multiple people have reached out and like, yeah, I was considering suicide until I read this book or yeah. Like we've had people with kids tell us this. Like, it appears to be, and I really mean this.

We sell it for under a dollar on Amazon. Okay. It comes with a free audio book. And if you, if you

Simone Collins: can't afford that or you don't want to pay it, just email us.

Malcolm Collins: Send it to you. We don't care. We just, and the dollar that you do for the 99 cents, most of it goes to Amazon because they're like distribution fees.

And then the like one penny that goes to us goes to the nonprofit. Like, don't even worry about it. Right? Like we just want to help people because there aren't good other systems out there right now.

Oh, what do you think Simone?

Simone Collins: I am still curious to see what the next body dysmorphia driven trend is. Maybe, maybe it'll just go from fillers and anorexia and trans to like something [00:38:00] else will be added. Like there's, I can see it

Malcolm Collins: being Therians being pretty big, but I think the next big scandal is going to be therapists.

Simone Collins: Yeah, but I, it's, I, I see maybe not so much lobotomies, but definitely, Gender transition, specifically youth gender transition Botox and fillers. Though. We didn't talk about that in this episode. Well, I'm really just turning the keywords to get this demonetized. Sorry.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I'll have to, well, no, here's the thing that you often get with people who do gender transition or support it still.

And like, are not like, I love it when they're like, come on guys. Like there's lots of people. Who do this and then say great things about it, like 20, 30 years later. And I'm like, and there's lots of girls who were in the grooming gangs who then ended up finding new women for the grooming gangs. They've been convicted of this.

You know, there are lots of people who end up being gang raped and then marrying those people. There are lots of people like that doesn't mean anything. What we need to look at is the [00:39:00] psychological health. Outcomes of these individuals and are they pressuring people without full understanding of what they're signing up for?

Into irreversible decisions.

Simone Collins: Yeah, I just I I I'm still curious as to what maybe people in the comments will have some ideas Because there's someone that told me in high school that the new cutting or anorexia was going to be gender transition I would I would be shocked. It's like, what? What? Like, why?

Why? Why would

Malcolm Collins: Well, I mentioned this in a joke I did at the Libertarian conference, and it got a big laugh out of the room. And this was when I still told them, don't record this. Don't repeat this. Because I was afraid to have anti trans views. As I said, you know, when I was a kid, I was a hardcore goth.

And I loved all of that stuff and I always wanted to rebel against authority and all the authorities would tell me they go, Malcolm, Malcolm, Malcolm, one day you'll be an old man and you'll think whatever the [00:40:00] young people are doing is, is, is shocking and insane. And I always laughed at them. Ha ha ha.

You don't know me. I'll always be hip. Well, God damn it. If I didn't think that cutting off your dick was going to become a trend. But the fortunate thing is for us, like we really lucked into this is that I don't think we need to worry about this with our kids. It is very obvious in like five or six years, like this is retrograde at that point. That we, even though we have like autistic kids, I'm not worried about it because I just, I don't know.

Speaker 3: Malcolm.

Malcolm Collins: Look, they're gonna be targeting them, but I think they'll be targeting them in a very ham fisted way. I think we already see the movement moving. Everyone can go to the trans forums right now and see like the quote unquote trans women like emphasizing about like Graping JK Rowling's dick.

daughter, like granddaughter and like how [00:41:00] they're going to grape all the turfs and like how it's just clearly

Simone Collins: comes to the shark.

it clearly worked, given he publicly fantasized about assaulting women in bathrooms. Me when transphobic little girls ask me what I'm doing in the women's restroom when I'm obviously a woman. the two fantasized about assaulting J. K. Rowling's grandchildren. Not letting teaslers get with your kids is transphobic. Someone should Harry Potter woman's grandkids. Orion then goes on to call them turf meats.

Simone Collins: It's, it's too, I hope people

Malcolm Collins: are going to be forced to suck your girl thing. Well, no, what I mean is it's very obvious that these aren't female fantasies. Like these people are not acting or looking like females.

This is clearly like something else and something really horrifying. And, and people are like, Oh no, this is fringe people. No, it's not fringe people. Alec Minnan, like just last year got a Netflix deal and he's the one saying that everyone's worried about like little girls in restrooms with trans women.

But what they don't know is little girls are kinky too. And [00:42:00] that little girls fantasize about this stuff too. And it's like, Whoa. I thought that I would get this for a YouTube platform, but five years after getting a

Simone Collins: Netflix deal. That was a line crossed. Well, okay. Encouraging. We'll see, we'll see how this plays out.

This is one of those, you making a prediction episodes, and I love those, because then we can go back and see how it went. I'm gonna go start your curry. Love you. What am I having tonight? I can't remember the name of it.

Malcolm Collins: What? P-H-A-L-L. It's a curry that was developed in Birmingham and it's considered the crankiest of curries.

Simone Collins: English. English, Indian food. Yeah, I'm me too, by Mo.

Speaker 9: Yeah, it's the Minecraft man. It's the Minecraft man that Octavian loves so much, right Torsten?

Speaker 10: Yeah. Oh yeah?

Speaker 9: With your bone and arrow? Is it a bone and arrow or a bow and arrow? [00:43:00] It's a bone that comes with an arrow? Are you sure it's not a bow? You wanna open this one, Titan? Okay. Let's do it.