Defining antifragility in systems design

New @greenpillnet pod out today! 🌐

In this episode of the VDAO x Greenpill Antifragile Network States mini-series, host Kris Miller talks with Rob Avis, a permaculture educator, systems thinker, and co-founder of Fifth World.

Rob shares his journey from industrial food and oil & gas to regenerative design, and explains how nature, decentralization, and appropriate technology can help humanity build antifragile food, energy, and water systems. They explore regeneration, feedback loops, digital tools, beaver-built ecosystems, community resilience, and how to inspire the next generation of earth stewards.

A deeply optimistic, practical, and inspiring conversation for anyone building toward a resilient future.

🌱 greenpill.network 🌐 fifthworld.io vdao.org https://x.com/JoinVDAO https://x.com/rob_5thworld https://x.com/greenpillnet

🌐 Timestamps

00:00 – Cold Start 01:15 – Rob Avis joins the show 01:38 – Childhood roots: seeing the Amazon rainforest destroyed 04:01 – Cutting down forests in oil & gas the turning point 06:20 – Traveling the world to study energy, food & water systems 08:04 – Cheesecake factories, industrial food & system awareness 09:45 – What antifragility really means 12:06 – The three states: fragile, resilient, antifragile 13:43 – Human body as an antifragile system 16:08 – Ecosystems as antifragile, syntropic systems 18:18 – Why "sustainability" is not enough 20:07 – Regeneration: leaving systems better than we found them 22:17 – The beaver example; disturbance as healing 24:00 – Humans as positive ecological disruptors 25:42 – The "woo-woo" critique of regenerative movements 28:04 – Pragmatic regen: examples from large-scale farmers 30:28 – Using appropriate tools not dogma 32:51 – Global regeneration examples (Saudi, India, China) 35:09 – Land vs tech: bridging permaculture and crypto cultures 36:58 – 10,000 years of "deforest, plow, desertify" 39:24 – How digital tools enable better ecological feedback 41:51 – Tech vs nature: design the right balance 44:00 – Vitalik's techno-optimism & defensive accelerationism 45:19 – Decentralization as a natural principle 47:01 – From activist to humanist 49:00 – Everything gardens — humans included 51:18 – The biggest challenge: changing mindsets 53:29 – Fifth World: decentralized food, energy & water systems 55:48 – Case study: regenerating a desert property into abundance 58:14 – Why people crave reconnection with land & nature 59:57 – How urban renters can start (the Apple Harvest story) 01:02:37 – Community orchards & urban abundance 01:04:41 – Inspiration vs fear: how to steer the canoe 01:06:48 – Healing ourselves to heal ecosystems 01:09:09 – Bridging crypto + nature: governance & invisible structures 01:11:33 – A call for collaboration (real-world builders hackathon?) 01:13:22 – Regeneration as enlightened self-interest 01:14:40 – Final thoughts: do we want to be on the extinction list?