Chuck Todd is joined by former NFL Players Association executive director DeMaurice Smith to discuss his new book Turf Wars and the untold battles behind the modern NFL. Smith reflects on how he—despite never playing the game—won the trust of star athletes, navigated intense resistance from owners, and fought for free agency and labor protections. He shares candid stories of his uphill battle to lead the NFLPA, from owners attempting to block his election to risking his career to stand with players.

Smith also offers a rare look inside the billionaire owners’ club, likening it to a feudal kingdom where prestige and profit outweigh fairness. He reveals how Roger Goodell consolidated power, why Jerry Jones remains a polarizing force, and how owners exploit their franchises like personal toys. From hidden revenues to weak contract protections, Smith explains why the NFL has thrived financially while leaving players vulnerable. And with college athletes gaining leverage and younger NFL players more empowered, Smith warns that a seismic labor showdown between players and owners may be on the horizon.

Timeline:

(Timestamps may vary based on advertisements)

00:00 DeMaurice Smith joins the Chuck ToddCast

03:00 Why write Turf Wars? Why did the story need to be told?

05:00 Similarities between political oligarchs & NFL owners

06:30 Why did you get the NFLPA job despite never playing?

08:15 Players voted to strike in 80’s then crossed picket line

10:00 Players went through years of litigation to get free agency

11:30 NFL tried to stop NFLPA from hiring DeMaurice

14:30 DeMaurice forced to risk his job to run for NFLPA job

16:30 Was it hard to connect with the players?

18:30 Star players vouched for DeMaurice to their teammates

20:15 Goodell visited with multiple teams and it went BADLY

24:30 DeMaurice was warned, NFL owners are the worst people

25:00 NFL owners view their team as a toy, vehicle for prestige

27:00 Owners try to pull equity out of their team without selling it

28:15 Relationship with Robert Kraft

30:15 Tension between younger and older owners

30:45 The good and bad of Jerry Jones

31:30 Jerry Jones frustrated with “freeloading” owners

33:15 The NFL is a feudal kingdom

33:45 Pete Rozelle vs Roger Goodell

36:15 Goodell has done an incredible job generating revenue

37:15 Mike Brown isn’t a billionaire without Goodell

37:45 What would the league look like without owners, Packers model?

39:15 Packers requirement to publicly report gives insight into league

41:15 The only rule NFL placed on itself was Rooney Rule, don’t follow it

42:00 The NFL is comfortable knowing it’s basically above the law

43:00 How much revenue was the NFL hiding under its nonprofit status?

44:00 The league gave up nonprofit status to hide salaries, legal issues

45:15 NFL contract protections weaker than other sports

46:00 NFL culture is “psychologically militaristic”

47:30 Players/owners showing solidarity over kneeling for anthem

48:45 NFLPA is a microcosm for labor standing up to capital.

50:15 College players have more leverage than NFL players

51:30 Newer generation of players will change relationship with owners

53:45 NFL owners fear educated and empowered players

55:30 School should mandate financial literacy courses for players

56:45 Are players concerned about the mess at the NFLPA?

58:00 Players need to understand owners aren’t their friends

58:45 There’s a war coming between players and ownership

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