Yeah I mean I think that's true to some extent across this sector as a whole right like you hear way more about electricity than the parts of the energy sector that are probably the hardest to actually decarbonize. I do want to push you a little bit just on what you said about being a donor darling because I can't speak for the questioner but I think that's maybe where he or she was coming from. What aspects of Kenya's approach to this do you see kind of falling into that donor influenced space like what are you speaking to there?

Well I think one thing that's undeniable is Ruto's own political ambitions which is tied up to how the West views him and I mean I think they're like you know political scientists who study this phenomenon in more detail including perhaps rehabilitating his reputation. You know he had this whole ICC court case you know he's come from less than glamorous roots and now has actually done a pretty good job on this clean energy platform as emerging as a completely respected regarded while Rita invited everywhere hosting the world in Kenya and just kind of holding court you know and so I think part of the cynicism that people are observing and I suspect the listener is pointing to to some extent his route to the person and his political ambitions and what he's doing with this platform. For me if all that happens everywhere everywhere and in Africa especially but you know for me I just think that if we can actually get stuff done and I said I you know I don't want to betray any political leanings I want to be as politically neutral here as possible but you know if Kenya the facts stand as I said really strong starting position on the clean energy landscape in our resource endowment already a regional leader have a platform to work on if we can actually leverage these starting conditions to build out our energy infrastructure bring our regional peers along be represented on the global stage I think those are good things I think the challenge is where doing a dance with self-interested politicians or self-interested slash kind of naval gazing donors there's always a risk right so the risk for the donors is obviously they kind of have the agenda and you can kind of lose your plot you can lose your gender the risk of the dance the risk of the self-interested politicians is what we see every day in Africa which is seeking enrichment for self and leaving everybody else behind so I think that is the risk of this kind of deal with the devil so to speak but for now I feel cautiously optimistic that you know this is not as this is not like a completely contrived situation the foundations kind of make sense great and

I mean putting aside self-interestedness in the sense of corruption or you know real ethical issues like to some degree that's how democracy is function the job of a democracy and the job of voters is to harness the self-interested politician to do good things and to like try to push a system where personally ambition and political ambition aligns with accomplishing good things for the country so yeah I think that's kind of just a reality

of of politics you know what let's watch the space you know especially as we approach in the reelection timeline and I mean the country is also in a lot of crisis for the cost of living so I think a lot of a lot of interesting dynamics to watch and maybe I'll revise my opinion come our next AMA so I've listened I asked a question again in the next episode Katie Alyssa had a question for you which is related to Africa's significant deposits of critical minerals so cobalt, ethium all of these minerals that are really critical for the global energy transition there's a lot of buzz around them so you know everyone's talking about critical minerals the question marks around how we get these to fuel the transition so can you share information on the hubs involvement in advocacy or policy related initiatives both within Africa and on a global scale on this topic what's your

take so this is not a traditional space that the hub has worked in we focus pretty narrowly on electricity not on mineral extraction but there are kind of three I think reasons why I at least am starting to think more about this issue from a hub perspective so first is maybe the most obvious one which is that from the perspective of a global good and expanded more resilient supply chain for clean energy minerals is important for the global transition writ large so it's inevitably going to impact the world's ability to develop energy systems everywhere the second reason is more political and that's that low-income countries should absolutely benefit from the use of their mineral resources they should have a say and who develops them and how and where the benefits go and I think there is this moment of kind of a gold rush mentality where you see a bunch of donors and investors kind of pouring into the mineral space and I think this is a crucial moment where we have to be really thoughtful and really careful about putting safeguards around that and figuring out how to safeguard the sovereignty of countries and make sure that we don't just kind of replicate colonial patterns of the past so there's like a diplomatic and a political angle that I find really interesting and that the US is certainly going to have to grapple with and then there's also a somewhat self-interested motive for the hub which is that whenever you have a moment in time where there's tons of attention and money going into a particular part of the energy world that gives you an opportunity to say yes and what about electricity access so I think the mineral space is an area where there's really a lot of momentum and room to push for parallel investments in domestic energy to say like okay what would it look like for the US to partner with a country like Zambia and develop its minerals for the good of the global sector but also make sure that that comes with major investments in Zambia's domestic energy supply so you're pairing the economic piece with the development prerogative so we've been talking to the US government congress and the executive branch about something we're calling energy security compacts which is basically this idea of what bilateral packages of energy security assistance could look like between the US and other countries and in some cases I think that may very well include kind of parallel investments in both mining and domestic energy supply not everywhere obviously in other cases energy security means something entirely differently but we're definitely looking at what it might look like in a country with major mineral resources and how that would benefit both the country and and the US and the world at large

channeling I think the person who asked this question but adding my own lens so I think there's a little bit of a narrative problem that a lot of people are observing in this critical minerals chat so one is the kind of insistence on framing around geopolitics right and so I think a lot of African commentary does kind of feel like every time so there's this gold rush mentality people excited and then there's this insistence on the framing around geopolitics and interests right and so obviously you're working on this I think really strategic and interesting kind of from a tactical perspective like working with the US government and US investment international investment vehicles to create an arrangement where there's US self-interest alongside countries self-interest but how are you towing that line do you feel like it's a tough thing to do to be yes and in a situation where everyone is primed to be like oh my goodness why is it always the sense of like Africa people are playing ball you know it's just kicking the ball back and forth and playing games geopolitical games with Africa

yeah I totally I'm very sensitive to that and I totally get that and I think part of the difficulty is that obviously the messaging that you use and the way that you frame an issue has to vary depending on who you're talking to and that's not necessarily cynical that's you know a key part of how you communicate the importance of something and everyone is going to have a different interest in a particular topic that's just the way the world works and I think in this context the reality of US politics is that there is a strong very strong concern about geopolitical competition with China I think there is valid concern about the heavy dependence on Chinese mineral processing as we look forward decades and we want the clean energy industry to grow and thrive there is there are valid concerns about you know depending too heavily on a country that we are so that there are so many tensions with economically human rights issues whatever what have you so I don't think that speaking to those concerns necessarily means that you're seeing Africa as a pawn I think it's one piece of of what's going on and I think sometimes it definitely takes over the messaging and then obviously causes problems. Katie

just as I'm listening to you I'm actually revising my thinking real time and I'm almost realizing that this insistence that on Africa is a pawn like and constantly being vigilant about that is entrenching this part in amic because yeah you're right like countries do this all the time people are like playing against each other's interests like you know US Euro perlations you know what I mean like countries have tactics and African countries this is I'm going off on a kind of a limit but maybe part of like ascending to be like a global peer that is leaving this power dynamic where you perpetually victimize is just being able to have tactics and to have tactics applied to you and this is what countries do. It

kind of ties back to the previous question about people viewing rutto with such skepticism for his application of tactics when part of you is like well if he were the president of a high income country would people have that same skepticism I don't know it's very

interesting oh they would but it wouldn't be this like exceptional thing there'd be supporters and critics on either side kind of commenting on the tactics but okay one last tactical question just on this critical thing and this is more from the perspective of a think tank right I think the other bandwagon kind of gold rush effect is when there's a hot topic and all the think tankers and police people swarm in right and this is something that even in kind of the things that I work on on the hub I'm always kind of trying to toad that line you know so how do you make that decision maybe using this topic as an example because you start off being like this is not a traditional hub thing how do you convince yourself that we have something to say on this like this is not just the topic du jour and so you know we're going to jump on that bandwagon

yeah I mean I think for me the real danger of the gold rush mentality is not really the think tank world jumping in it's policymakers and investors rushing in and actually putting money places without having the data and the robust processes to figure out like where and how and when and why they should be putting resources into certain things so I think the danger is if a country like the US countries in Europe other places with money to spend start feeling the pressure to enter the mineral space and do a bunch of things and I think that's actually the perfect time for a group like the hub to come in and provide some thoughtful analysis and some good data and help push those actors into smart more effective actions so I think that's kind of a perfect role for us and that's the nice thing about the think tank world is you and I were both in government there's never time when you're actually in government to read or to think or to plan you're constantly putting out fires and you're constantly reacting to whatever the current crisis is and you're having to make decisions on the fly and our role in the think tank world is to take the time to analyze different options and ideally help shape that decision-making process and make it better.

I really like that lens and that frame. We'll now transition into the second bucket which is advice for others and Katie and I are noticing that we're getting older because young people now ask us questions about how to be a person in the world so it was not too long ago when we were asking the questions and now we it's like the ask us have become the askees what can we say our first question was actually a little bit of career advice and I think it ties really well Katie to your previous comment about like what the role of a think tanker is and what it means to work in different parts of this energy policy world so anyway I'll read out the question the way it was written so Katie this is for both of us so you'll go first and the question is what's your top recommendation for young energy professionals who are establishing themselves in the energy field and identifying an ish? So I will

answer this in a way that I would have wanted I would have wanted the answer when I was young because I was I was always very anxious about not having a specific niche and not feeling like I had exactly the right issue that I wanted to be the world's expert on. I was interested in a lot of very different things and how they connected and that made me anxious because I thought you had to have a very very clear niche that was yours and yours only and so I guess I would say like embrace the fact that you don't know what your niche is and spend the early part of your career just digging into everything that interests you and the reality is that it all connects and that there's immense value in being a person who can see the connections between A and B and C and and kind of synthesize that in a way that's clear and directs people to to action and to smart decisions so don't stress about the niche I would

say. Yeah and I think my response to the question is pretty much the same as you which is thinking back to my young self I know it's easier something than to say don't stress and being a young person is I think built into your DNA is like stressing out about everything but I think a little bit it's a lot of an asset to kind of really take things to feel things in a strong way but I really do believe that as human beings we learn experientially and especially in your younger years it's just really a data gathering exercise you know just be really open and to new experiences new ideas and because you build your sense of self you build your sense of what you value you build your sense of what interests you through this data gathering exercise through working on different projects working with different people it's you know always a random walk and even it never ends I think even now I can tell you what I'll be doing in in 10 years

to be honest. I specifically did not do a PhD because I didn't like the idea of spending seven years kind of focused on a super niche topic you did a PhD on some super specific I don't even know what your some chemical engineering solar something.

Material science applied physics but close enough actually my my lab was a chemical engineering lab in a material science applied physics lab and the chemical engineering side they were rich because they have a lot of chemical industry supporting their work and so the physicists we were very poor but close enough but

my question was like you did go down a route of focusing on a very particular tiny piece do you. Are you catching

me out on my contradictions?

Well I'm curious like how you think about that now like did that did that time of the 10th focus actually help you broaden ultimately or like how do you

see that? Yeah it's so interesting to kind of apply that retrospective lens because I think one thing a couple things that really really hastened my departure into the lab and a PhD was one graduating during like at the beginning of our global economic crisis so you know that that really makes our grad school attractive and then the second thing was actually not knowing what exactly I wanted to do I wanted to spend more time before I got into the real world and then and so actually it was a little bit of product of indecision but I think the one thing that was decisive about my decision to go to grad school is this is something I really recommend that people do and and keep reflecting on is pretty early on I think I had a sense of my values like what I really value what is important for me in my life in my professional life my professional life my personal life right and so one of the things that I've always been passionate about is teaching and I always saw that as a vocation another thing that I really value and I'm passionate about is kind of having independence being able to be curious being able to think and having an impact you know this kind of I have a list of things that have just kind of been a constant and I had a good sense of them from early on and the part of being in college helped me refine that sense of what do I value and so actually doing a PhD is step one into being a professor and actually being a professor is a platform that checks a lot of my boxes you teach you mentor you are curious you think you have visibility and have a platform show you ideas which is something that I really care about you can do impactful work and so I think the thinking for me is I don't know exactly what I want to do I'm a little bit undecided but then this is a getaway to a profession that I think can help me you know check a lot of my value boxes yeah

all right well we'll check back with you maybe in 10 years we'll see professor Rose Matiso okay at

the energy for growth hub university yep let's do

so the next question is again for both of us we are both you and I we are in the past couple years women who have become mothers I have two young kids you have one how has being a mom changed the way you think about the hubs energy issues yep so yes

I am a mom I have a 20 month old who is fabulous and I didn't actually think I'd be a mom so it's been a wonderful surprise I'm really enjoying it I would say like I've always been somebody who feels a lot I think a lot and I feel a lot which is quite a combination I think often mostly good and when I was young at which as Ria said I think part of being a young person is feeling a lot and feeling world issues as quite personal and wanting to do something right and as I've gotten older and retreated more into the world of adulting I think that I still feel a lot but that kind of intense connection to the world to that like the fate of people my sense that I am connected to everyone else and I want I want the best for everyone and my life's work is to kind of do that and to agitate around that has kind of faded a little bit as I kind of have retreated more into the thinking part of you know so like I'm pretty much you know I'm a policy won't you know I just kind of I'm in that kind of technocratic thinking realm and I try to infuse my feeling into it but there's there's kind of that I have that distance from that passion of youth and I think being a mom has really reinserted me into this deep sense of feeling of me alongside every other person in the world every other parent every other child you know I just really want the best for my child I want the best for every child I think that I'm it's really amazing to be returned to that and obviously our work is about energy poverty climate resilience the future of the world you know and day to day you know it's kind of really dry and technocratic but then when I look at my kid I'm like you know this is this is connected to the well-being of everyone it's connected to the ability of mothers of other children everywhere to be able to like protect their kids and give them the best so I think I'm really back in a very feeling mode and as you

know I cry a lot now so yeah

I mean you and I bond a lot over our feelings and are crying I was gonna have my answer is incredibly similar I think because I'm a mom I feel injustice and inequity like very personally in a way that I didn't before and I think for me like I'm raising two little white boys in the United States and I'm so aware of how privileged they are in so many different ways because of their zip code and how much money their parents make and just so many things I just feel very personally now that every kid in the world deserves the opportunities that my kids have and better that all kids deserve the best and I think when you think about that in the context of energy poverty I just feel very personally connected to mothers around the world who just want the best for their kids and it's kind of humanized the issue for me in a way that maybe it hadn't been before and the other thing I was going to say which is much more personal is just that I think being a mom has made me much more protective of my time

like yeah like

all of my time the time that I have for my family but also the time I have to work and the time that I have to myself like all of it is in short supply and all of it is way more precious than it ever was before parenthood and I think that's made me ideally more efficient and more focused in the moment because I'm so conscious of the preciousness of time. That is

so cool it's interesting when iron bonus a grad student there were always these like really forward thinking grad students and postdocs who actually had their kids while they were in grad school it seems counterintuitive but it's actually a time when you have a lot of flexibility it's actually pretty and you have insurance and what it's actually like it's not a terrible time there was a sense like this is you know like I was in like my you know early 20s I don't know what's happening but people would always say that this would talk about this like efficiency dividend because when you grad school you're just like the most inefficient person in the world like you'd I'd go like two weeks and not do a single thing and then just like not sleep for another two weeks you know it was just like the worst

time management in the world and and it's

interesting because now that I'm a mother you know I've actually I just I recall that I was like well now is it now finally it's my turn to be

efficient I promised I do like you

know it's just like this as sure as there's mom brain and you forget everything there's also on the other side the other side of the coin is that there's a kind of efficient parent mode totally the interesting thing for me is I do agree with this like I just have constraints on my time and my time is circumscribed completely by when my kid gets up when he gets to nursery when he's picked up you know when he goes to bed like these are kind of sacred like they're not punchable you can't your weekends are often like this is this is not you don't have that kind of free time anymore and so my working hours are just like fixed in the kind of the working day which is really really great but I feel like I still haven't quite cracked they're like okay maybe let me not just like read and think about an article for like three hours in like the like the finite amount of time I have but I'm still hopeful I'm still hopeful that the parent efficiency gods will like sprinkle me some of that efficiency very dust well we can keep working on it together I am

curious