(04:11) Brought to you by Jellyfish

AI tools alone won’t transform your engineering org. Jellyfish provides insights into AI tool adoption, cost, and delivery impact – so you can make better investment decisions and build teams that use AI effectively. See for yourself at jellyfish.co/platform/ai-impact.

Are you managing your team the same way you did five years ago? With AI agents now part of the workforce, the old playbook no longer applies.

In this episode, Jurgen Appelo, author of “Human Robot Agent” and creator of Management 3.0 and unFIX, challenges conventional thinking about management, organizational design, and the future of work in the AI era. He explains why rigid frameworks like Scrum are becoming bottlenecks to AI speed and why he believes we need to completely rethink how organizations operate.

The conversation dives into the concept of creating “fast tracks” for AI agents while maintaining “slow tracks” for human collaboration. Jurgen also breaks down why team sizes are shrinking and why professionals must move beyond T-shaped skills to become M-shaped, multidisciplinary workers to remain relevant. He also shares his controversial take on why Scrum is “done” and why he trusts AI more than the average human when solving complex problems.

Key topics discussed:

Managing systems vs people in hybrid human-AI teams
Why patterns beat frameworks for organization design
Why Scrum is done: adapting Agile for the AI era
M-shaped workers: the new multidisciplinary skill
Fast and slow tracks: redesigning work for AI
Why AI outperforms average humans at complex problems
Critical thinking as the essential leadership skill
The new optimal team size and dynamic reteaming

Timestamps:

(00:00:00) Trailer & Intro
(00:02:20) Career Turning Points: Seven-Year Career Pivots
(00:05:29) Origins of Management 3.0
(00:08:31) Managing Systems, Not People
(00:12:35) Everlasting Management Principles
(00:17:21) unFIX: Patterns Over Frameworks
(00:24:27) Core unFIX Patterns
(00:31:39) Pipedrive Case Study: unFIX in Action
(00:38:16) M3K: Merging Management 3.0 and unFIX
(00:41:33) Skeptical Enthusiast: Balanced AI Perspective
(00:47:18) Co-Creating with Humans and Machines
(00:51:51) From T-Shaped to M-Shaped Workers
(00:56:38) Why I Trust AI More Than Humans
(01:00:19) Scrum is Done (Not Dead)
(01:05:50) Redesigning Organizations for AI: Fast and Slow Tracks
(01:09:25) 3 Tech Lead Wisdom

_____

Jurgen Appelo’s Bio
Jurgen Appelo is an author, speaker, and entrepreneur who helps leaders rewire their organizations for AI-driven leadership and autonomous digital agents. Recognized by Inc.com as a Top 50 Leadership Expert and Top 100 Leadership Speaker, he bridges opposing worldviews: human ingenuity and AI, leadership versus governance, stability with innovation, and individual growth fueling collective success. As founder of The unFIX Company (and previously founder of Management 3.0 and co-founder of Agile Lean Europe), Jurgen pioneers the future of work through stories, games, tools, and practices that challenge conventional thinking.

Follow Jurgen:

LinkedIn – linkedin.com/in/jurgenappelo
Website – jurgenappelo.com
Substack – substack.jurgenappelo.com
Human Robot Agent – https://jurgenappelo.com/pages/human-robot-agent

Like this episode?
Show notes & transcript: techleadjournal.dev/episodes/242.
Follow @techleadjournal on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram.
Buy me a coffee or become a patron.

Don't be a Bitter Single Girl ICYMI

It's Me, Tinx

Host Check-In: Burnout and Year-End Wobbles

The AI-powered Podcast Player