Interview Preview: Black Moses and Oklahoma

In this episode of the Chuck ToddCast, Chuck delves into the recent developments surrounding Donald Trump, beginning with his confrontational rhetoric against adversaries and the implications of his actions over the past week, which some argue could have driven impeachment efforts. He explores notable incidents such as Tom Homan’s controversial cash exchange and highlights the fundamental challenges to our constitutional principles. The discussion also covers Trump’s use of legal charges like mortgage fraud to target enemies, as well as his aggressive, and possibly legally unfounded, attacks on Venezuelan drug boats. He analyzes how such actions may have numbed the public to attacks and assess whether Trump's political standing is now eroding amidst these controversies

Then, journalist and historian Caleb Gayle joins to discuss his new book which highlights the power of untold history and the forgotten story of Edward McCabe—known by some as “Black Moses.” Gayle traces McCabe’s ambitious but ultimately failed dream of building a “Black state” in Oklahoma, a vision that drew freedmen west during Reconstruction and briefly united Black settlers and Native Americans. From McCabe’s hard-nosed political maneuvering to the competing interests that saw Oklahoma as a battleground for power, Gayle paints a picture of ambition, resistance, and the forces that shaped the region.

The conversation also explores how Oklahoma’s history—from the possibility of a Black state to the devastating Tulsa massacre—has been distorted or stripped down in traditional teaching. Gayle explains the deep tensions between northern Black elites and freed southern Blacks, the lingering influence of Jim Crow, and the ways Native tribes wielded wealth and power. Looking ahead, he reflects on how today’s political climate shapes the writing of history, why context matters more than ever, and what stories he hopes to bring to light in the next decade.

Finally, Chuck answers listeners’ questions in the “Ask Chuck” segment”

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Timeline:

(Timestamps may vary based on advertisements)

00:00 Introduction

03:00 Trump targets his adversaries

12:00 Trump's actions in the past week would have driven impeachments 

14:30 Tom Homan took a bag of cash 

16:00 We have basic challenges to our constitution 

17:30 Trump target enemies with mortgage fraud charges  

22:00 Trump attacks Venezuelan drug boats without legal basis

25:00 Unclear that there’s legal basis for attacks

30:30 Trump has numbed public to attacks

36:00 Trump’s political standing is eroding

39:00 Caleb Gayle joins the Chuck ToddCast 

40:45 What made you want to become a history biographer/writer? 

42:00 History teaching in Oklahoma is stripped down to its most jingoistic parts 

43:30 When did you discover the Edward McCabe/ "Black Moses" story? 

46:30 McCabe was a polarizing dreamer who wanted a place to belong 

47:30 Blacks and native Americans found common cause in Oklahoma 

49:15 Many blacks moved west to escape tumult during reconstruction 

49:45 How did Edward McCabe get to Oklahoma? 

52:00 McCabe was a hard nosed political tactician but struggled to win office 

52:45 Senators told McCabe that Oklahoma could be a "black state" 

54:30 McCabe sold a vision of "if you build it they will come" 

56:00 The Republican party was hesitant to create a black state 

57:00 Why McCabe was the wrong person to create the black state 

59:15 The role of the native American tribes in the early Oklahoma territory 

1:01:00 Powerful interests competed to control Oklahoma knowing it'd become a state 

1:03:15 McCabe spent his resources trying to fight Jim Crow up to the Supreme Court 

1:04:00 McCabe concludes Oklahoma won't be a black state or place for black people

1:05:00 What happened to McCabe's benefactors in the north? 

1:06:30 What would it look like if McCabe had succeeded in making OK a black state? 

1:09:30 The creation of "Black Wall Street" in Tulsa 

1:11:00 The Tulsa massacre upended the idea of Oklahoma being a safe haven 

1:13:15 The wealth of the tribes gave them political power 

1:14:15 Gambling licenses were one of the only reparations tribes received 

1:16:15 Oklahoma was a crossroads state 

1:18:00 What other untold history stories are you diving into, what's next? 

1:21:30 The divide between northern black elites and freed blacks in south 

1:23:45 The conflict between lineage and freedom in American history 

1:25:00 The influence of the current political climate when writing a historical book

1:27:00 Handling the source material knowing media bias at the time 

1:29:30 What do you want to cover in the next ten years? 

1:30:00 The importance of history for giving context to the present

1:34:00 Nixon takes to the airwaves

1:45:00 Ask Chuck

1:45:15 Could Mamdani’s style of politics help independents?

1:53:00 What do local news organizations need to be successful?

 1:56:45 College football update

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