Marriage and Fertility Trends in China

In this episode, Malcolm and Simone dive deep into the surprising marriage trends in China, exploring why so many men are opting out of marriage despite a surplus of single women. From cultural expectations to economic pressures and social shifts, we break down the data, stories, and theories behind this demographic puzzle.

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Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] hello Simone. I'm excited to be here with you today. Today we are going to be discussing marriage in China, which has a very interesting phenomenon in which women, now everybody knows for a long time. You know, the China, because of the one child policy. People didn't want girls because they couldn't carry, carry on the family name.

They couldn't, you know, take care of you as easily when they're older, et cetera. And so they would find ways to have boys which meant there was a huge extra amount of boys in China.

Simone Collins: Right, right.

Malcolm Collins: So you would think the demographic that is having trouble finding a partner is boys. Right. That would be my assumption.

Simone Collins: Right.

Malcolm Collins: So I'll go over how bad things actually are in the opposite direction. We will then get into the common explanations people have, why I don't think they're good, and what a good explanation is.

Simone Collins: Ooh. So

Malcolm Collins: at an event in 2025, this was a Shanghai matchmaking event, [00:01:00] a mass matchmaking of it in Shanghai had nearly 1000 women who paid a 601 entry fee to attend, but fewer than 50 men showed up. Ouch. 600 women to 50 men organizing. It just seems like a

Simone Collins: bad marketing thing though, don't you think? No,

Malcolm Collins: No, because you'll see that this happens a lot. Organizers noted that when a single man did appear, he was swarmed like a minor celebrity with women rushing to compete for his attention.

In some cities, similar events have reported zero male attendees, despite hundreds of women waiting. Gosh,

Speaker: In Shanghai, there are plenty of unmarried women coming to my matchmaking events, but hardly any unmarried men nowadays, it seems that for every one Shanghai men, there are several or even over a dozen women competing, and the women are really desperate. It's not that they don't want a partner. If there are no men, how can they find one?

So now whenever one man shows up, everyone rushes for him. This has been going on for a long time. A few months [00:02:00] ago, Shanghai held a rather special matchmaking event with an interesting rule. Every woman had to pay 600 UN while men could attend for free, the women expected a flood of male participants, but to everyone's surprise, nearly a thousand women showed up while fewer than 50 men participated.

Malcolm Collins: the Gong Zg singles fair in 2024, a government sponsored single fair in Gozo had over 8,000 women registered, but only 40 men attend, resulting to a 20 to one female to male ratio.

Simone Collins: What is going on, especially considering the population

Malcolm Collins: skew?

Yeah, the, the, the 20 to 25 assault women lining up. To meet the few men present was organizers noting that the men were quote unquote overwhelmed and left due to the intense attention. I can't take all these women done, women get away. My

Simone Collins: God,

it's raiding women.

Malcolm Collins: In the Chong J Blind date market this was in 2023.

[00:03:00] Okay.

In Chong j, a park based matchmaking event organized by parents saw a significant gender imbalance with, of the 158 profiles posted, 70% were for women. My Lord, in Beijing's Valentine's Day event, 2024, a Valentine's Day matchmaking event in Beijing, organized by a local marriage agency, drew 600 women, but 25 men, making it a 24 to one ratio.

Now. Here you might be saying, well, it's because men don't wanna get married anymore in China. So we're gonna go over two polls, right? Okay. One poll done by the 2021 Communist Youth League survey found that 44 percent of Chinese women do not plan to marry, but only 25% of men plan to not marry. So actually men want to get married in almost double the rate of women.

And another poll showed that around 75 to 80% of. Urban women under 30, oh. This one showed women slightly higher. Okay. Plan to get married. 30 to 60 to 70% of men.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: So in some polls you see it, but it [00:04:00] seems that it's either around the same or men dramatically more than women want to get married.

Sure. So what the f is going on here, right? Yeah. And to give you an idea of how important this is demographically speaking, because people don't realize how modern this phenomenon is and how quickly things are are dropping. Mm-hmm. So in 2024, the number of registered marriages in China hit a record low.

Since records began in 1980, falling to 6.1 million couples a. 20% drop from 2023. Oh. So 2023 to 2024 is a 20.5% drop. And it's already in 2024 at less than half the number of marriages that there were in 2013.

Simone Collins: What is happening,

Malcolm Collins: number decrease. And if, and if we go sort of year by year to show how quickly this is dropping.

Between 2023 and 2024, you had a 20.5% drop. Then by, what was it? H 1 1 20 24. The first half you had another 12.7% drop. Then in the second half there, there's an

Simone Collins: acceleration taking [00:05:00] place. 'cause I just figured everyone is thinking this too. So I'm just gonna say it. Oh well because for men in China, it's too expensive to get married.

But no, something new is happening. This is new. Yeah. It doesn't really

Malcolm Collins: explain it, so. Yeah. Yeah.

I can, I can go and we'll read into some of the explanations, but the first thing that everyone always says is, well, in China there's this huge stigma against women who are too old. Right. Or women who are, you know, women are supposed to get married young.

Yeah. What are they called? Leftover women. Career oriented. Yeah. Yes. It's leftover woman trope, and it's like. Even if this stigma were true, okay, the high valued men would secure because like. Sleeping around culture in China and stuff like that, like the problems we have in the us this isn't really that common in China.

To give you an idea of what I mean when I say it's rare for women in China to sleep around, , one study showed that in China, , for women ages 20 to 44 only, , 6.5% reported two or more lifetime partners, [00:06:00] sexual partners. That is.

Malcolm Collins: Right. Like the, it's, it's not common to just like date around and sleep around and, you know, the Chad roller coaster whatever thing, right? With the Chad carousel? The cock carousel? No, it's the cock carousel that, that's not, that's not what's happening in China. Oh. So what would happen, right, if, if the problem was, is that men just had a preference for, you know, younger women.

The men who were able to secure the younger women, like the women who were actually sane enough to secure their partner while they were still young, would be securing these women. But then the other men, it's not like they disappear. For every woman not marrying more than one man isn't marrying because there's more men than women in China due to the reasons we talked about before.

So the men who were left over would, would it still sort of trickle sort to these lower value older women mm-hmm. Rather than be alone, but they are choosing to be alone and then people can be like, oh, well it's that, and we'll talk about this.

'cause e economics does play a role. There's like, there's a lot of economic expectations on men to get married in China, like having a house paying bride price, et [00:07:00] cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah. And it's like. Yeah. Except the problem isn't that women are being too snooty around these men. Right. It's not If they're

Simone Collins: swarming them at these news Yeah.

That

Malcolm Collins: the men aren't showing up in the first place.

Simone Collins: Oh, they're going, he gig, go worry.

Malcolm Collins: Well, no, I mean, they're, they're just not showing up to the dating events at least. Right. Okay. So yeah. But like in general

Simone Collins: too, if

Malcolm Collins: they were there, like even if they were a lower valued man, presumably they'd have an arbitrage opportunity.

Simone Collins: Yeah, totally.

Malcolm Collins: So to continue here so, and, and to the surplus of men, they have about 30 to 35 million extra men of marrying age.

Simone Collins: So what's, whoa, what is going on? Let's,

Malcolm Collins: let's go over some wrong theories. Okay. But that I think are interesting and worth throwing out there and talking through.

Simone Collins: Alright.

Malcolm Collins: Chinese marriage follow strict hyper gmy marrying up in status, but it's asymmetric. Women are expected to marry up in income education while men avoid marrying down to women who out earn or out [00:08:00] educate them. Urban women empowered by education and careers now demand partners who match or exceed their status, eg.

College educated women want a man with a house car and stable job, but urban men often reject these quote unquote, strong women as unfeminine or threatening to traditional roles, preferring younger, less I ambitious partners.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: A 2019 study journal of Comparative Economics modeled this is Equilibrium Crowding Out High Status Women's Pickiness plus Men's aversion to status equals.

Leads to 20 to 30% lower marriage rates for college grads versus less educated women. In survey, 70% of urban women said they'd prefer a wife earning less than them versus only 40% of women. Okay. With earning less.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Basically what you're getting here is, is just pointing out that men prefer a woman who earns less than them.

Right. And yeah, which

Simone Collins: is also common in western countries, in western countries. And you're not

Malcolm Collins: seeing the same phenomenon as exaggerated in Western countries. Hmm. So one, it doesn't really explain it. And two, even if this was a phenomenon. It would be that the men were showing up to these events [00:09:00] and then getting turned down.

But that's not what we're seeing, right? The men aren't showing up at all, right? And when they are showing up, they're being swarmed. So that doesn't really make sense with this theory.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Next, the skyrocketing economic barriers theory. Urban marriage requires men to front massive costs. We've talked about this before with buy prices averaging around 14,000 to $28,000, and keep in mind what you earn per year in China.

So that's huge. Yeah. Plus wedding expenses, right? With urban property prices up 300% since 2010 and used unemployment at 15 to 20%. Many men, especially non elite ones, can't afford with, with many women thinking you need a house in, in Chinese customs to to buy one and then be eligible and.

Women holding 40% of urban savings, but often transferring it to, in-laws upon marriage, amplify this by demanding financial proof of stability. So when they get married, they send all their money to their family. So they're like, I need you to have financial stability. It doesn't matter for me. Okay. Yeah, this does make sense.

Yeah. And it [00:10:00] is true that marriage rates in China correlate inversely with housing costs. But where Beijing and Shanghai, only 50% of men under 30 own a property versus 80% needed for. Eligibility. But anyway, people are like, okay, so why show up if they're not even gonna date you? This might make sense, but are the women really being that picky at the events?

We'll get into this in just a second because the answer a bit of a spoiler, it's yes, they are. Even though you get these scenes of men lining up, like women are lining up to men, you don't know what they're asking them in those lines. And that's, that's gonna be the big reveal here, by the way. Mm.

And then the final one is the migration theory. Right? This is, the gender surplus is geographic. Rural areas have 20 to 30% more men due to women's outmigration for education slash jobs, while cities have a subtle female surplus among elites. Okay. With women being 55% of college grads in China. But a 5% difference doesn't explain the marriage rate thing that we're seeing here.

Simone Collins: Right. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: I.

[00:11:00] Oh, interesting. Here. Well, this, Okay. So any thoughts before I go further? Simone?

Simone Collins: I'm just trying to see what it actually is. 'Cause it's, I mean, those other things are definitely a factor.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: But

also they've been factors for a very long time. They cannot explain this acceleration.

Malcolm Collins: Something has

Simone Collins: changed.

Malcolm Collins: So what has changed? Is what is happening within these marriage marketplaces, right? And it should be obvious, okay? The men don't want to go on dates, they don't want to go to dating events, right? It must be something that is happening in these environments that makes men not want to go, right?

So let's look at what the men are saying. About their experiences? Yes, please. So in one viral Webo post a, a man likened it to a kettle auction where he said, women asked about my salary, my house, and my car before they even asked my name. I'm done. At a Chong Dog [00:12:00] Matchmaking event, where is four Southern singles?

Reported in South China Morning Post Wong John, a 27-year-old office worker, specified he wanted a partner without younger brothers. He explained to organizers that he feared marrying into a family where he'd be expected to support a male sibling, financially, a common cultural expectation in China. I could barely afford my own life.

He said, how can I take on someone else's family

Simone Collins: fair? Can

Malcolm Collins: you imagine that? Having to support your wive's younger brother? Yeah.

Simone Collins: No thanks. Are they all passport broing?

Malcolm Collins: A lot of them are, which we'll talk about in a second, but, but not as much more women actually leave China. Like it's one of the countries.

Remember when we did our episode on like how the incel are stealing all the women from other countries?

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: China is one of the countries where if you look at migrants out of China, more of them are women than men, which likely means passport growing is a large thing that's happening, but in the opposite direction.

Speaker 5: Finally, let's take a look at a high quality unmarried man from Shanghai and why he still hasn't found his other half.[00:13:00]

Do you see that? Man? He's been on over 30 blind dates and every single one has ended in failure. Some medicines found it strange saying he's quite handsome. What kind of economic condition must he have for him to be unable to find a partner? A representative from the marriage agency explained that's not the case at all.

He's a local Shanghai. Born in 1992, employed in a state owned enterprise and earns over 300,000 UN a year. He's about 1.75 meters tall, pretty average, and even has some savings. She went on to say many girls actually liked him, but the men had his own ideas. He has 10 types of qualities he won't accept.

He said, if you can meet my requirements, then I can seriously start a relationship with you with the aim of marriage. But if you don't, I'm sorry, dating is fine, but marriage is out of the question. Edisons then asked, what are his requirements? One, he doesn't want a girl who smokes drinks. Gambles has tattoos or wears heavy makeup.

Two, he doesn't want someone who dresses in a bizarre manner. For [00:14:00] example, a girl who in broad daylight, wanders around in cosplay. Three. He doesn't want someone who values pet rights over human rights. Four. He doesn't want someone who excessively posts beautified photos or selfies with heavy filters on social media.

Five. He doesn't want someone who lives paycheck to paycheck. Six. He doesn't want someone who is overly competitive or overly concerned with comparisons. Seven. He doesn't want a girl who goes clubbing, especially those wearing see-through outfits and still shaking it at bars three or four in the morning.

Eight. He doesn't want someone who lacks a sense of boundaries. For instance, being overly familiar with men who are already in relationships or having male best friends. Nine. He doesn't want someone who's not filial to her parents. 10. He doesn't want someone who expects the man to do everything while contributing nothing herself.

Ence responded. These 10 requirements are very normal. I thought they'd be something else. The matchmaker added, believe it or not, when he presented these 10 requirements at the matchmaking corner, he ended up being surrounded by [00:15:00] girls hurling insults at him. They called him an average guy with overblown confidence and told him to look in the mirror.

I was really puzzled because it seemed like plenty of girls there actually met those 10 requirements.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. So at a Shanghai matchmaking event a 27-year-old male attendee, Chang Hui described the experience. He approached several women only to be asked immediately about his income car ownership and whether he had a Shanghai Hoko, Hako. I guess that means like home. One woman, a 29-year-old marketing manager reportedly dismissed him after learning.

He rented red other than owned his apartment saying quote, why are you here if you can't afford a home End quote. Chen felt humiliated. And stopped attending these events. He said, these women act like they're shopping for a car, not a husband.

Simone Collins: Yeah, no kidding. This is horrible.

A lot of this may actually come downstream of how few sexual partners Chinese women have. , When you have only 6.5% of the population having slept with somebody [00:16:00] else, , you have a population that is extremely guarded in who they sleep with and how they date, who looking for an extremely high value male?

. And essentially what you're seeing here is what happens when you have, uh, what I think what a lot of Western men wish we had, uh, which was overly guarded females about who they sleep with. When women become overly guarded and that becomes a norm within a culture, you get a cultural norm everywhere around being incredibly prudish, even in terms of who you might marry.

Malcolm Collins: At a Beijing's single fair.

This is 2024, this straight time. So keep in mind this is all like really modern, that this is happening and concurrent with all of this stuff.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: During a government sponsored dating event, one 30-year-old engineer. So like a good guy who you should want. Right. He spoke to a 28-year-old lawyer who listed her requirements within three minutes, a man earning at least 30,001 a month or $4,200, owning a car, willing to support her and her parents financially.

Ah. What, when he admitted he only earned [00:17:00] half that $2,100 a month, which is still a very decent salary she walked away mid conversation saying, sorry, I don't have time to waste.

Simone Collins: Well, I don't care. I would've walked away if I were him 'cause I'm not supporting anyone. This. So, no,

Malcolm Collins: she walked away. She walked away.

I know she

Simone Collins: walked away. I would've walked away If I were him, I, I would've been glad she walked away if. I couldn't, I didn't have the energy from being so shocked by her demand. It says

Malcolm Collins: women are, were unreasonably picky, expecting millionaires only. You know, I feel like to an extent we get this in the United States, it's just that women aren't as transparent or as fast to voice what they're really looking for.

Yeah. And so you get a little too much puss around before they're like, actually I'm only interested in millionaires. I

Simone Collins: suppose I just it, it would seem then that women and men are culturally unable to marry in China if they are adhering to normative cultural standards. That this is a culture that is rendered itself.

It sterilized itself completely [00:18:00] non-viable. Yeah. From a marriage market standpoint, that is insane.

What are they gonna do? I mean, can the, can the government intervene? Can the government say, sorry, we're not doing this anymore. Like your family is, cannot expect to be supported by your daughter's husband. This isn't happening anymore.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: I mean, but they're still gonna expect it. I don't What would you do?

What would you do if you were Xi Jinping? Let's, let's keep going

Malcolm Collins: here, by the way.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Tanton dating app encounters, so that, so let's say, okay, not just the marriage markets, he got dating apps as well.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: A a 3-year-old delivery driver, Zang Bo shared his experience on the dating app ton with Channel News Asia.

He matched with a 27-year-old office worker and after a brief chat asked for his WeChat to see his quote unquote moments, social media posts to gauge his lifestyle when, when Joe shared. Photos of his modest [00:19:00] apartment. She responded, quote, you live like that. I need someone with ambition. In quote, zing felt her tone was quote unquote condescending and stop messaging her.

He noted that many women on apps quote, act Superior, focusing only on wealth or status, which made him feel like a failure and quit online dating. Yeah, I would

Simone Collins: too. It's horrible. That's horrible.

Speaker 2: I absolutely refuse. Leftover women over 30. This one's already 32. Why on earth would I marry her?

Speaker 3: A reporter asks, but aren't you 35? She's three years younger than you, and I've seen that her job is very stable. The man replied, I haven't been unfamiliar with leftover women in my life. Let me tell you, leftover women over 30 all share six common flaws.

The reporter asked him to elaborate. The young man explained

Speaker 2: first, having seen the world when they were young. They developed sky-high standards and feel that no one is good enough for them. Second, even though their looks have [00:20:00] already started to decline, they still live in the glory of their youth, casually dismissing any man as ugly or unattractive. Third, their fertility is on the downturn, so having children in the future may be difficult.

Fourth, their personalities are generally hard to get along with. If they were more amiable, someone would've already swept them off their feet. Fifth, it's not about love at all. It's all a transaction. They immediately start negotiating conditions with you asking about your car house, salary, and even whether your parents have a pension, it's all calculated.

Six. If they once had a decent boyfriend, they use the standards they set for their ex. When choosing the next one, insisting that the new guy must be even better. Have they ever thought that if their ex was so good to them, why didn't they marry him?

Speaker 3: The reporter then commented that the young man's views were too absolute saying.

So you think that all unmarried women over 30 have problems, but you're 35 and still single. Doesn't that suggest you might have problems too? The young man answered, if [00:21:00] I have problems, I dare to admit them, but would she dare to admit hers?

Malcolm Collins: A, a another dating event that had 800 women and 40 men. A 29-year-old salesman. So this is one of the, like, good ones, right?

Talked about the encounter and said it made him bitter. The 30-year-old account, a 30-year-old accountant, asked him to list his assets, was in the first five minutes of talking, when he mentioned he was still saving for her home. She laughed and said, good luck finding someone with those prospects before moving to another man.

So this isn't an event. Where this woman realize there are 40 men and 800 women. She goes to one of the 40 men in one of these lines, and her first thing is list your assets. And then she laughs at him.

Simone Collins: Yeah. The, the level of. Insanity when when you're in a beggar, you're in the beggar position. You know, beggars can't be choosers.

I, I can't [00:22:00] understand this. Are they, are men and women do you think super culturally isolated where they cannot understand how insane they sound? Because I feel like most. Most people should understand this, right?

Malcolm Collins: Well, so keep in mind, in China, most of your friends are gonna be of your family network because you have much more like closer family ties.

And so they may not be as like, and then, and then in social settings because, you know, it's easy to gender segregate. They really may just not have many male friends outside their families who can correct their expectations and family members because they wanna be supported. Right. They're gonna be pushing them.

They're, they're like,

Simone Collins: yeah, get your bag, girl. Oh my God, get your bag

Malcolm Collins: girl. Right. You know, that's, that's, that makes sense.

Simone Collins: Yeah, if, if you're only friends are your brother, who also would love the idea of you marrying someone who pays for his video game, he could go more lifestyle.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, of course. He's gonna be like, Hey, yeah, no, of course this is the right thing to do.

Yeah. He would be dumb

Simone Collins: to [00:23:00] not. Yeah, he is. He is. He doesn't lose anything for her, not marrying, and he has a lot to gain for her. Marrying someone who does that, who signs up for that scam.

Malcolm Collins: Is they're not making a mistake. Like they're actually being really shrewd in their dating, in terms of listing what they expect from a partner and then quickly moving on when a partner doesn't have that.

Right. Like, that's really important. That's what I did when I'm dating. That's what I always recommend that people do when dating go out. Tell people what you're looking for. Yeah. But also the, the, the, the, the secondary part here is you need to adjust your expectations based on the market dynamics.

Simone Collins: Yeah, they, they don't seem to be responding to feedback. Maybe they don't have a shot at feedback considering how few men are even.

Malcolm Collins: I just don't, like, before I go for, I just don't see how you could be in an event with 800 women, 40 men look around, like be in line to talk to one of these men, see all of these women clamoring over these men.

Right. [00:24:00] Yeah. And then not be like. I am the one on the back foot here.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: It's, it, it's, it, it's women have, have become a way in this country where nobody wants us. Right. Like, more broadly it's her wider category of human that is uninteresting to these men. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 4: The rest of this matchmaking scene turned into a textbook example.

Today. A couple came into our agency for a blind date. After they sat down, the man immediately asked a woman, how much do you earn per month? She said, A bit over 8,000. Then the man said, your family must be quite well off right. The woman replied, just average. My parents are ordinary. The man then asked, have you bought a house?

She answered, no. After hearing that, the man said, then let's not talk any further. I've got something to do. The young woman was a bit baffled and said, you start by asking about my income. Are you really here for a blind date? The man responded. It's [00:25:00] not like that. I just think we're not a good match, so let's not waste our time.

Then the woman asked, what exactly is wrong with us? The man replied. If you really wanna know, I'll tell you as soon as I walked in, I noticed your bag costs tens of thousands of yet. Your salary is only about 8,000. Moreover, you're renting a shared apartment, perhaps where the rent is about 1000. Food costs, about 1500 and utilities, plus other expenses add up to roughly 1000.

And on top of that, you still have to buy clothes. Honestly, your clothes aren't cheap either, so can you really manage to save 1000 Euro a month? I'd say even 1000 is too much for you to save. Given all that, the only possible explanations for you having a bag worth tens of thousands of un are these.

Either someone gifted it to you, in which case why would they give you such an expensive bag or you bought it on credit? Am I supposed to help you pay it off? Or third, the bag is fake. If you can't afford the real thing, then there's no need for you to buy one. But insisting on buying a fake just doesn't sit right with me.

The young woman, clearly [00:26:00] indignant, said, can't I just save up for a year or two and buy a bag? I really like the man replied. If you're scripting every month just to buy that bag, then we're even less compatible. And then the young woman almost burst into tears from anger and.

By the way, I gotta say I agree with the man's shrewdness in this particular story. Um, I think that this was the right approach. , People who like luxury items can make your life miserable really, really quickly. Um, and, and, and who will because of, you know, if she is. Uh, you know, going through periods of austerity to get a luxury item like this, she's going to demand that you do the same because she has a taste for this sort of stuff.

Whereas a sane person is just like, it's just a bag. Like, why? Why would I want that? Except to signal to other people or to myself that I am X type of person? And if you need to signal that to yourself, you're gonna need to do that throughout your entire life, and you're going to need more and more to do that.

Malcolm Collins: If you wanna go through some other theory [00:27:00] here, which I think are closer to accurate. Okay. We have the lying flat theory. Yeah. Urban men are increasingly rejecting marriage itself, not just events due to changing values. The rise of lying flat and anti consumerist movements among youth reflects disillusionment with traditional milestones like marriage, which is seen as a financial and emotional burden.

Women despite embracing independence, 44% don't plan to marry, still face stronger social pressure to wed driving them to events, and that might be another thing that we're seeing at these events. Oh, they don't

Simone Collins: actually want

Malcolm Collins: to get married. They don't actually want to go plan to get married. They're sort of forced to be there, and so they don't mind walking around and insulting men at these events.

Simone Collins: Oh, that could explain these insane demands.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I mean, they, they make more sense as insane demands of someone who would be happy to live alone anyway. But Sure. If someone's gonna pay for this and that and the other thing, I guess I'll get married, but then, [00:28:00] if not Yeah, no interest. That, that totally makes sense.

Malcolm Collins: Event accessibility and design. So this is another problem that they don't often talk about in these articles where they complain about these events. Matchmaking events are often structured in ways that determine men. For example, high entry fees, like 601 in Shenzhen, strict screening, eg.

Income and education. So you can't even get any of your looking to use this as an arbitrage opportunity.

Simone Collins: Wow. Or

Malcolm Collins: public formats, eg. Parents posting profiles which favor women who are more wi willing to pay slash invest due to social stigma. Men, especially non elites, see these as elitist or rigged status competitions.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, and I, I could imagine someone thinking in principle when setting these events up while we have. Men must be more desperate because there are many more men than women. Therefore we will charge them more and not really understanding, not reading the room, and then charging them a lot more. So that goes.

Yeah. Well I

Malcolm Collins: think the, I mean, you can continue to charge if women fail [00:29:00] to see that they are the problem. Right. Like as and, and, and this is civilization ending for China with their current fertility rate, right? Yeah. Like this is astronomically bad. It appears that where you're only getting strong marriage rates is in rural regions where you have the less technologically and economically productive populations to China.

Mm-hmm. Which is going to eventually bring China back to its previous poverty. Right. If those are the only cultures within China that continue to breed. Yeah. Especially if everyone was in these rural environments, who gets. Educated moves to cities which then act as fertility grinders, which creates a discogenic IE it rewards.

And, and, well, I'll put it the other way. It punishes the genes that lead to higher educational attainment and higher income attainment. Right. And

Simone Collins: ambition and risk taking a lot of the things that help countries become wealthy. Yes.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. How would I fix this in China? I mean, I think one thing that could easily be done to fix this and would be cohesive with [00:30:00] China's ancestral culture mm-hmm.

Is to move to a ous marriage style. Where wealthy Chinese men marry multiple women. If women just aren't gonna consider men who aren't wealthier than them, then what you should do is have, you know. Two to three women for every one of these wealthy men, and they'll be able to support the additional kids anyway.

So they're likely to have even more kids

Simone Collins: outside of emperors having lots of courtesans. Was that common with other wealthy Chinese men? Historically?

Malcolm Collins: I could try to check in post,

Here is what Gro has to say. , Polygamy is particularly a man, having multiple wives was common in Chinese history, especially among the elite. , In ancient China from the Chang to the Zow, this was, uh, 1600 to, , BCE to 256 BCE. Dynasties, Kings and nobles often had multiple wives and concubines to secure alliances, produce errors and display wealth.

The practice was codified in Confucian texts, which emphasized family hierarchy and male authority. For example, the [00:31:00] Book of Rights outlined rules for men of different ranks. Uh, to have a primary wife, key and a secondary wife or concubines quay. , During the Han and Tang, dynasty's polygamy remained widespread among emperors, aristocrats, and wealthy merchants.

Uh, emperor has maintained large harems sometimes in the thousands of concubines. , This, the song and Ming Dynasty. So we've gone from, uh, 206 BCE now to 1644, BCE. They saw stricter social norms, but could. Polygamy persisted among the gentry. A man could take any additional wife or concubine for reasons like producing male errors or enhancing status.

By the 19th to 20th centuries, , Western influence had reduced this. Okay.

Simone Collins: yeah, I mean, you know, and like the dramas, of course it only shows up like within the walls of the Forbidden Palace.

So

Malcolm Collins: yeah, I don't know, but but that could be an option and would be cohesive potentially with Chinese sort of [00:32:00] ancestral ethics. Not, not what I would prefer for my kids. It's not what I would opt for my family, but, you know, I, I'm going to be honest, it seems more realistic adopting to a culture where males take multiple wives, then adapting to a culture where women expect less of men.

Because that's hard to do, right? Yeah. And the other positive thing about moving to this system is it would have positive genetic effects instead of dis genetic effects.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Um,

Malcolm Collins: Because the, the men was the strongest gene. Like more men would wash out of the gene pool, which would cause social disharmony, which isn't great.

But you already have that degree of social determining and social determining matters. Less if it's coming from the least economically relevant players in society. Yeah. Social dis disparity matters more when it's coming from larger economically relevant players.

Simone Collins: Right. 'cause that's where the state's gonna feel the hit.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: It's all about what's happening with the money bags.

Malcolm Collins: The other option is very obvious option is. Ban. Do [00:33:00] you, you could create a government regulations that make it harder to move up and stuff like that if you're not married. Just putting a higher pressure on marriage.

Simone Collins: Oh, right. Just forcing it.

Malcolm Collins: Or heavy taxes if you're unmarried after a certain age or something like that, which yeah, basically forces the question. The next is to change cultural expectations about what happens within married IE governments banning bride prices and taking care of the elderly. Yeah, that's

Simone Collins: what I was thinking.

But then again, they kind of need someone to take care of the elderly considering that they're not gonna be able to. Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: well the government does have its murder van for people who break the law that they did that ad for, that we've shown in a previous video where they drive around and they're like, if you break the law, we'll come to your house and we'll just euthanize you in a van.

Yeah. Maybe they can do what Canada

Simone Collins: did with their euthanasia program, just with their mobile vans.

Malcolm Collins: Do do it for the elderly, right. To get up a notch. Yeah. The, the moment you run outta money as an elderly individual, the murder ban comes to your house. That's, that's what China could, and, and this not out of feasibility for China

When I was living in China for 10 years, [00:34:00] I mean, I KNEW that there were death vans in China, but it was always one of those dark things that lived in conversation, not necessarily in real life.

But China's death vans, or execution vans, these cars that just show up and execute you, for stuff that I'll explain to you later, and they take you away forever, they're real. They're very real. Very real the crazy thing is that they want their citizens to know about the vans, and they really, really want them to feel scared. I'm not kidding. Not only does this death van pull up and take your life, it's being promoted and promoted.

Malcolm Collins: they probably do it in some more discreet way or say that like you're doing your civic duty or something.

The other thing that they could do is. Ask women to be less picky and find a way of socially punishing women who act like this in events or who, who think like this, right? Like women should feel embarrassed to have these types of [00:35:00] expectations in the way that in the United States, there has been a big campaign basically to make women embarrassed about having these expectations.

Through you know, huge amounts of YouTube videos that go into this and stuff like that. I mean, you've seen this, right? Like you would know in the US because even as a woman, you're gonna be exposed to some amount of like red pill mgtow content and you're gonna be like, oh, I don't wanna be like one of those idiot women who they like interview outside of a club who, you know, have completely insane financial expectations and all want a guy who's six foot or whatever, right?

But anyway, thoughts.

Simone Collins: I think all those are feasible. I, I do think that if, if someone tried to regulate things like bride prices and expectations around paying off family members, people would just circumvent that. You know, I feel like there's, there's some stuff you can't really outlaw. People will do it anyway.

You, we might just need to skip a step and have China just start to make children of the state. In a way it's, it's, they're better off for it [00:36:00] because they're 100% their kids. They, they can raise them fully indoctrinated. They already have experience building infrastructure where they own people and educate them in camps.

Yeah.

With the Uyghurs for example, they would just do this and presumably be a little nicer, but maybe they don't feel like they have to be, but I feel like given this additional information, I thought China might wait a while to do that, but now I feel like it's getting to a point where it may make sense for them to just offer women, you know, gestational, surrogacy payment and then just take the babies and raise them

Malcolm Collins: with As, as a state.

Simone Collins: As a state. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And then you could better, they dormitories, they have

Simone Collins: schools, they train them for whatever jobs. I mean, because then as the state, you'll be able to shift your education system on a dime for, for your state children to [00:37:00] educate them for whatever it is you need as the global economy shifts.

So if suddenly you need more people who are really good with energy infrastructure, immediately you are shifting all the schooling.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I mean, they grew up, energy is everything. You know, they, you grow up being trained to be an engineer from a young age, right? Like yeah. You just

Simone Collins: have so much more control.

And I think ultimately China wants that level of control over its citizens. Why not just, I mean this, this kills several birds with one stone. And I feel like that could

Malcolm Collins: your dystopian solutions. I love it.

Simone Collins: Well, I'm just thinking about what would actually work to maintain stability in the country. And yeah, well, I

Malcolm Collins: mean, I think one of the things is, is for generations across almost every human society women have done a service for the state for free, which is having and raising kids.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And I mean, the, you, this would just be making it fair, you know, we're, we will pay you. [00:38:00] To be a gestational carrier and then to give your child to the state and we will give your child. But the point opportunity I'm, I'm making

Malcolm Collins: here is that I think that people haven't realized how twisted it is for the state to expect.

Individuals within a country to bear the cost of both risking your life to have the next generation of taxpayers and then you investing in raising the next generation of taxpayers when they expect to reap the rewards of that.

Simone Collins: Yeah. It, it, it makes sense for the family to take on the burden when the family reaps most of the reward at this point.

And this is an interesting thing, I haven't really thought about this way before, but you pointed out something really big. What has also shifted after the Industrial Revolution, and especially with the rise of social services and like the a largely socialized state, is that [00:39:00] now the government reaps the vast majority of the benefit.

From new people being created. That's crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Because what do parents get? It used to be in the United States, you don't get old age care. You don't get workers. You, you get the, you get the satisfaction of watching your children flourish, which now is happening at lower and lower rates because youth is struggling.

So, yeah,

Malcolm Collins: no, as a parent, you used to get workers for the farm. You used to get a little person you could send to a factory who would work for you, and then the money, and you had old age care. And you had adult age care, right? None of that exists anymore. And the main benefit of having kids is the state, the main beneficiary.

Yeah. I didn't consider that, but you're absolutely right. Yeah. Oh

Simone Collins: my God. Yeah. So then China's gonna have to just create, it's, I mean, when, when the primary beneficiary, yeah. I guess in the end, in, in most economies, it has to be the person who wants the product, pays for the product. Yeah. And we see an economic failure here.[00:40:00]

When the thing that wants the product is unwilling to pay for it. And, and obviously now the product is, is, is going out of stock, no one's making it anymore because, you know, no one's willing to pay for it, I guess. That's huh. Wow. Well that changes the way I look at things, but yeah, that's, that's what I would do if I were Xi Jinping, I would already be.

I'm looking to where I'm gonna set up the dormitories, the schools, the infrastructure. It's all there. I mean, I'm sure there are regions. It's funny

Malcolm Collins: that you think like Xi Jinping and, and, and you go at this like a. An autistic woman where it's like, if I was Xi Jingping, well I just demand that I have to impregnate every woman in the country who doesn't get married.

I, I'd go the Elon strategy, right? Yeah. I don't know. I don't know where the state would

Simone Collins: source sperm. I, I, I imagine they would just choose like in whatever, by whatever measure, like really high performing men, they wouldn't even need [00:41:00] necessarily to pay them for it. 'cause I think men would just be like, this is great.

They need to pay the women, but yeah, we don't need to wait for artificial wombs for this to be something that especially the Chinese state would do at scale. You could just take a, a region that's rapidly depopulating, take over its entire hospital, make the entire thing from maternity. Yeah. Anyway.

Malcolm Collins: All right. Have, it's my Take a spectacular day, Simone.

Simone Collins: I love you Malcolm.

Malcolm Collins: My gosh. China. China is, is effed. Is is like genuinely effed. This is terrifying.

Simone Collins: Congratulations on our fab.

Malcolm Collins: It is, yeah. No, no. R Fab AI wants to check it out now. It used to be like a terrible site in terms of what we were putting together and then come on, I got, but no, it was not like fun to play around with like it, a bunch of things were broken. Now I got, I was like, you know what?

I'm gonna try to learn to vibe code. I'm gonna try to push this project [00:42:00] forward as fast as I can. After like two weeks of working on it, you'd say, Simone, while I was traveling, while we were shooting with HBOI. Was able to, was a huge help from Bruno. Get a really, I think, sort of high quality AI chat adventure thing out.

So if people wanna check that out now, it, it'll get better every week. Like it'll, and it's a lot

Simone Collins: better, I would just say, than any of the other mainstream AI chat apps you'd had me try. So I'm not rest. Even, even at this early stage. If you want a, a better one, just go try this out. I think

Malcolm Collins: the two sections that are really working well are the adventure mode and the not safer for work mode.

So try that out. The adventure mode is the one that we've put the most time into, so try it out. Anyway, but so really like when you checked it out, did you check out like the narrative engine maker and stuff like that yet, or, I haven't

Simone Collins: tried that. I only, I only tried the. Like pre-made,

Malcolm Collins: it basically allows you to create like complicated [00:43:00] multi-pass AI engines for more complicated types of scenarios that you wanted to make yourself.

That is delightful. Which I think is really fun. As, as sort of a, a, a concept for people to play around with.

Simone Collins: Yeah, no, it is, it is objectively fantastic. I love it.

Malcolm Collins: Actually, I just had an idea of her feature. I wanna add Pear Engine. Wiz scenario

Simone Collins: what? For more

Malcolm Collins: complicated scenarios I plan to make one for like battles and stuff like that, which I'll put together.

And one for like city management so we can have different types of AI running on it, which I'm quite excited about. But yeah, things move so fast when I'm the one being the grunt work. Right. It's pretty freaking great. Well, yeah, I I I love that I have a new skill I can code now. That's awesome.

Anyway,

Speaker 6: Torsten, did you just say, come down to try to hurt Daddy. Daddy? Yeah. Why do you wanna hurt daddy? 'cause it's funny. [00:44:00] So funny. Do you know that people think that I hurt you? Toastie. People think daddy hurts you. Why do you think they think that?

Because I wear, because it's so funny when you hurt me doing, doing this. So funny. Okay, and you're gonna try to hurt me too tight now. Ah. Ah. Whatcha doing? You? Ow. That's hard.

No wait, Titan, we're just trying to have a conversation here. We're, oh my God. Tristan, why YE two Torsten?

Oh my God. Why do you wanna hurt me? Titan?

[00:45:00] Oh my God. That hurts a maniac.

Who taught you that? 4.56. After the is formed. It settled in what? What doing you maniac.

Oh.

Titan. Wow.

Beating you up. Titan

Charact by,

oh my gosh, that hurts so bad. Darcy. Amazing. No, you can't jump from there. You [00:46:00] will certainly die.

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