A lot of designers, as a lot of design leaders and managers and people like that, have usually far too much stuff on to acto stuff that they really should be doing. And often seem to have those conversations or going, you know, i think this particular conver sion that design people have with business people. You can't make them see the system from your point of view; it's just impossible. But what you can do is understand that what they're seeing is minutia which is their immediate lane of information. So let’s use the same skills that are used against us in our day-to-day work so we can get things done more effectively.