Intro

How do top leaders captivate audiences and drive action? Carmine Gallo distills the communication habits behind Steve Jobs and Jeff Bezos into practical moves you can use right away. From minimalist slides to memo-driven meetings, and from relatable stories to memorable metaphors, this episode shows how to simplify, persuade, and be heard.

In this episode, you will learn:
✔️ Why simplicity signals confidence and increases retention
✔️ How to wrap data in a narrative so people care and remember
✔️ The Amazon rule that replaced slides with written memos
✔️ How to manage nerves with deliberate rehearsal under pressure
✔️ A simple structure to avoid the curse of knowledge. Start at the top

Whether you lead teams, pitch clients, or present to executives, these strategies will help you communicate with clarity and credibility.

CONNECT WITH ANDREA

🌐 Website: https://talkabouttalk.com/
🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/
✉️ Andrea’s Email Newsletter: https://www.talkabouttalk.com/newsletter/
🟣 Talk About Talk on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talk-about-talk-communication-skills-training/id1447267503
🟢 Talk About Talk on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3afgjXuYZPmNAfIrbn8zXn?si=9ebfc87768524369
📺 Talk About Talk on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@talkabouttalkyoutube

CONNECT WITH CARMINE GALLO

🌐 Website: carminegallo.com
💼 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/carminegallo/

MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE

📖 Talk Like TED by Carmine Gallo: https://amzn.to/3N9Fgn2
📖 The Bezos Blueprint by Carmine Gallo: https://amzn.to/4gpDaOi
📰 Carmine’s Columns on Inc.: https://www.inc.com/author/carmine-gallo
🎙️ Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard: https://armchairexpertpod.com/

TRANSCRIPTION

Carmine Gallo: We’re all storytellers. We’re wired for story. It’s how we process the world through narratives and stories. It’s the way we communicate information, mostly through stories, not bullet points on a slide. 

Andrea Wojnicki: If you wanna communicate like the world’s top leaders, then you’ll love this episode with Carmine Gallo, bestselling author, storytelling guru, and expert communication coach. We’ll reveal storytelling secrets from Steve Jobs and Jeff Bezos, and break down how you can craft stories that connect, persuade, and stick. 

Let’s do this. Let’s talk about talk. I’m Dr. Andrea Wojnicki. Please call me Andrea. This is Talk Sbout Talk, the podcast where I help you communicate with confidence. I also write a newsletter. We’ll put a link to that in the description. 

About Carmine Gallo

After years of following Carmine Gallo, I finally connected with him on the Inc. Magazine Slack channel of all places. Yes, we’re both columnists for Inc.Magazine. I’ll leave links by the way to his and my articles in the show notes too.

Thank you so much for being here today, Carmine, to talk with me and the Talk About Talk listeners about communication skills. 

CG:  Well, thank you for inviting me. I think one of the reasons why I like your approach is because, unless I’m mistaken, it comes from an academic research background, doesn’t it? Didn’t you get a, uh, you got a PhD from the Harvard Business School? 

AW: I did. I got a doctorate of business administration, uh, with a major in marketing. 

CG:  Yeah. So I shared the perspective of putting things into contacts and sharing ideas that we can back by research and data. These aren’t just opinions, but everything we talk about is really backed by the latest science, which is always cool.

I think we come from different perspectives. Obviously, I’m not from an academic background, but we probably reach similar conclusions. 

AW: Yes. And I know from reading most, if not all of your books, Carmine, that you do a ton of research for your books, whether it’s interviews or counting things in various Ted Talks, which we’re gonna get into.

CG: Excellent. I see some of my books on your bookshelf. Yes. You, you a smart, you’re a smart podcast host. 

Secrets of the World’s Best Communicators

AW: Yeah, that’s the image I’m trying to portray here. Carmine. Okay. So. I have so many questions that I wanna ask you, but I really wanna start with this one, which is, I know based on your books and your writing and your articles that you’ve studied, many of the world’s greatest communicators, including Ted speakers, including Jeff Bezos, including Steve Jobs, and on and on and on. So I wanna start there. What do these incredible speakers have in common? Maybe what surprised you about them? Who stands out for you as the number one speaker in your mind? 

CG: In my opinion, still the world’s greatest brand storyteller was Steve Jobs. He brought a completely new dimension to presentations. His presentations were like theatrical performances. They were fun and engaging and interesting and entertaining. So I wrote the first book on how Steve Jobs gave these awe-inspiring presentations. 

That’s where I really started getting into the research, trying to talk to people who had worked side by side with Steve Jobs or who were in the practice and rehearsal rooms when he was getting ready for these huge keynote presentations, like the launch of the iPhone in 2007 and some of the other iconic presentations. 

AW: Can I just add, I’m so glad to hear you say that because I teach a lot of workshops on communication skills, and there’s a series that I’ve been doing for some physicians, some healthcare workers, and on the set, the workshop that we do focused on formal presentations, I ask them to watch that 2007 presentation, ’cause I think it is iconic as well. I’d love to hear maybe what you think stands out about that in terms of his preparation and delivery. 

CG: I’ll tell you what they all have in common. The great Ted speakers, Jeff Bezos and Steve Jobs. Getting back to one of your questions, and this will answer the Steve Jobs one too, it’s, he had the courage, they all had the courage to keep it simple.

Minimalism. When we talk about minimalism right now, it’s more about product design, or when you walk into an Apple store or a luxury store, it’s minimal, more white space, fewer products. Well, you can also apply that to presentations. So if you look at that, Steve Jobs’ presentation. There’s one picture on a slide.

One photo, one image, two words. You, there are no slides. That Steve Jobs probably ever delivered, you know, maybe decades earlier. There are no slides with just text and bullet points. It’s an image and minimal text, or just an image that takes a little courage. That’s what I mean by having the courage and the confidence to keep things simple.

Simple meaning everything from the words you use. Less jargon, more familiar language, all the way to the presentation itself, if you are using slides or visual materia,l to have the confidence to tell the story and let PowerPoint complement the story, but the slide should complement the story first. Does that make sense?

You are the storyteller, not the slides. 

AW: Absolutely. Yeah. So. As you were answering that question, Carmine, you made me think about something that I wasn’t planning to ask you, but I wanna get your opinion on this. I have this theory that a lot of us, maybe even most of us, make a lot of mistakes because of our generosity.

We think that the audience needs to know everything that we know about the topic, right? So then we end up losing focus, which is kind of your point here, right? So, I have this saying that I say to my clients, which is the most generous communicators, ironically, are more precise and more focused, and they’re sharing less quantity.

CG: Again, I mentioned something in the beginning that we’re reaching similar outcomes from different perspectives. I’ll tell you a story that I learned from the TED Talk organizers, but it doesn’t have to do with generosity; but it’s saying the same thing. Okay. 

So when I was writing a book on the on TED Talks that talk like TED, the organizers of the TED Conference, tover some 30 years have learned that when a speaker is invited to give a TED Talk, whether it’s 10 minutes or at the max 18 minutes, the speaker often asks in, in frustrated, in a real frustrated tone, how can I possibly tell the audience everything I know in 18 minutes? You can guess what the answer is.

AW: We don’t wanna know everything that you know. We just wanna know the one thing, right?

CG: Exactly. What’s the big picture theme? Then you can fill in some details, but the point is never in any presentation really, to tell people everything you know. It’s to tell the audience what they need to know at that time.

Depending on the audience, depending on your intended outcome. Then presentations and public speaking become so much simpler, and don’t try to condense everything, you know, select what the audience needs to know. You mentioned generosity, so let’s unpack that a little bit. I feel like I’m gonna turn the interview on you because I hadn’t thought about it that way, and I think it’s an interesting way to think about it.

AW: So, Carmine, I go back and look at some of the early newsletters that I was writing for my Talk About Talk audience, you know, six years ago. And I’m like, wow, I just was giving them everything. Every week. They were getting this huge volume. Was frankly a bit scattered, but I know in my mind that I had the best intentions.

I wanted to teach them everything that I could, and I realized over time that being more focused is really the generous thing to do. Yeah. I like, I like that approach. 

CG: Interesting way of looking at it. 

AW: Yeah, I think it was, you know, the lesson was from me looking back at my past work and seeing my mistakes.

CG: You know, I use the word courage at the beginning of this. Uh, I think everything we’re talking about, advanced communication, persuasion, does take a little courage. At least you gotta build up your confidence because if you’re not confident, let’s say you just got outta grad school, you have a business degree.

Wanna tell everybody how smart you are? You want everyone to know how smart you are. And then as you progress through a career and you see people who reach the top who are extraordinary speakers, they tend to do what we’re recommending here, which is holding back on a lot of information and only giving the audience the information they need to know. 

They’re much more selective than people who just enter the workforce because they’re already confident in their role. They don’t need to prove anything to anybody. So it does take a, build that confidence early before you’ve been in a career for 40 years.

AW: So, that is a different way of looking at it. Right. Maybe six years ago, I didn’t have the confidence as a communication coach that I now have, where I’m like, I know the, and also, the more you know, the more you know you don’t know. Right? Of course. 

CG: Yes. Yeah. Then I think that’s a big part of it too. I’m only half joking, but I think it does take a little confidence to be simple.

It takes confidence to deliver a PowerPoint presentation and not have a hundred words on a slide or eight bullet points and just have one picture. Uh, yeah, that takes a little confidence, but I’m not, I never ask anyone to completely blow up their PowerPoints, but within the culture that you’re in, within the corporate culture that you’re in, if most PowerPoints are really wordy and cluttered, see what happens when you insert a couple of PowerPoint slides that are completely opposite, and then you can kind of go back to the others. But see what happens. Try experimenting counter culture.

Building Confidence & Overcoming Nerves

AW: I love it. So I wanna drill down on the confidence topic. A lot of the folks that I coach experience imposter syndrome, or they talk about anticipating feeling nervous and anxious before they go out on stage, either to lead a big meeting or to give a presentation.

What are some of the hacks or maybe mindsets that you share with people to boost their confidence? 

CG: It’s tough. Yeah. You’re supposed to be. Anxious about public speaking. So I think that’s the first thing. And I’m sure you’ve talked about this before, which is it’s natural. It doesn’t help a lot to say that, but when you talk to neuroscientists and cognitive scientists, you should be nervous.

Uh, because our, you all, Noah Harari has written about this, the famous historian, I’ve interviewed him once, but he was talking about how, uh, storytelling and communication skills were all important as we developed as a species, uh, because people could rally around a leader, a story, and uh, and share stories.

So anyway, we were having a whole conversation about storytelling, and then we got into this whole topic of, well, people are nervous, public speaking, and you’ve all said, yeah, you’re supposed to be, it’s mission critical. It’s from an evolutionary standpoint that you are liked by the tribe. If you were not accepted, you were banished outta that cave and that wasn’t a good outcome.

So to him it was like, yeah, so it’s natural. You’re, it’s, you’re supposed to be that way. So I kind of think that’s the first step. It’s like, yeah, okay. Acknowledge it. It’s a yes. This is a thought that’s coming through my head. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It’s there and it should be because I’m excited and, and I wanna share my ideas and I, yeah, I want to get them across.

But can I tell you before we leave this topic, there’s only one tactic on that I’ve come across that works. Terms of alleviating stress. And it’s the same tactic that professional athletes use before the big game, uh, or that law enforcement or military or anyone who actually has to execute something under high pressure.

They practice that skill thousands of times. I thought you were gonna say deep breathing. Carmine deep breathing. Actually, we could talk about this for the whole podcast, but deep breathing is a part of it. The Navy Seals use deep breathing to get their fear under control. So I’ve actually talked to seals about breathing exercises, but that’s a part of the training and preparation.

The point is they practice for it. They practice getting nervous. They practice putting themselves in high stress situations that they’re not familiar with. So I think the problem that most of us have when it comes to feeling anxious about. Speaking is because we’re doing something that we haven’t done a thousand times, and if you don’t practice and you don’t rehearse and you don’t put yourself under some kind of stressful situation.

You just worry for three weeks ahead of your PowerPoint. Yeah. You’re gonna be worried about it. Okay. 

AW: Yeah. Yeah. So, I’ve told a story of when I was in my twenties and I worked at Kraft Foods and I had to give this big presentation at the national sales meeting, and, and I completely bombed. I was shaking and I’m sweating, holding my script or whatever.

And then, yeah. So thankfully I independently made a decision that is never gonna happen again, and how am I gonna get over it? Is by volunteering every opportunity that I have to practice. 

CG: So at that time, whether that was intentional or not, or whether it was a conscious thing, you were going through those steps that, uh, and a professional athlete, uh, you know, or high-performance athlete goes through, so they don’t get nervous when the pressure is on.

You practice and you had practice games, you had a lot of them. Yeah. I honestly believe that’s one of the few tactics that works because it’s like any skill. The more you do almost anything, you get more comfortable at it. But very few of us give a presentation in front of a board 10 times a day. Of course, you’re gonna be uncomfortable, so you do need to put in that practice time and if deep breathing exercises help you and they should help you incorporate that into like your practice sessions.

Go through some deep breathing, then rehearse out loud, maybe in front of a friend or two. 

AW: Add a little attention to it. Make it as realistic as possible. I love it. I love it. I’m gonna be thinking about you next time, Carmine, when I’m rehearsing a keynote. So you’ve mentioned storytelling a few times, and I know you’ve written books about storytelling.

I feel like as a communication coach, and you might agree that at this point, everybody knows that storytelling is, I think, necessary for truly impactful communication, but it’s really hard. Why is storytelling so difficult? I think they’ve heard of it and some many know that they’re supposed to do it. 

We make it sound, uh, and I’m saying we creatives like us and people who talk about it, I think it’s important not to make it sound like it’s just for novelists and creative types and marketers, because I think a lot of people turn off almost immediately and think storytelling.

CG: I’m not writing the next Great American novel. Yeah. Okay, that’s cool. I’m sure there’s something to learn, but how does it apply to me? So I think it’s very important that we tell people. We’re all storytellers. We’re wired for story. It’s how we communicate. It’s how we process the world through narratives and stories.

It’s the way we communicate information, mostly through stories, not bullet points on a slide. So you, we are storytellers you, but it may not be your title. Your title does not have storyteller on it. It’s Vice President Development Manager, but you’re a storyteller. So understand that you’re the storyteller first.

It applies to each and every one of us. Some people just do it for a living. They’re called writers or screenplay writers, but you’re a storyteller too. You simply have to adapt it, understand it first, and then adapt it to a business, uh, business setting. 

AW: So. Imagine. I am not a storyteller. I am a vice president of marketing or hr, whatever finance at this organization.

I do some public speaking. I do lots of internal meetings, and I fully agree with Carmine and Andrea that storytelling is critical. Where do I get the stories and how do I think about integrating them into my communication?

CG: You’re a storyteller first. So stories come from your own personal experience. When you tell a case study, we’re all familiar with case study examples. A case study is a story. You just don’t call it a story, but it’s, it’s a story. So whenever you craft a narrative, it’s so much more impactful than simply delivering information. And I’m sure you’ve talked about the neuroscience of why that is, but essentially it goes back to, again, you all will tell you our evolutionary traits.

As Sapiens, we processed our world through stories and that’s how we became explorers and learners and people who, uh, cooperated with each other. You can’t cooperate just by giving people facts. You have to motivate them and take them on a journey. There’s a lot about storytelling gets pretty involved. I mean, you, you can get really, really deep into it.

So what I like to do is just start, you know, big picture stories can be personal anecdotes. An anecdote about yourself, your background, uh, why you came up with your idea. It could be a case study. Our competitors are doing X, Y, and Z, but if we do this, we’ll get ahead; we will get a big jumpstart on them.

If we do not take this, uh, if we do not adopt this new platform, we could be left behind and we may lose a lot of money and we may lose customers. Let me give you an example of a company that happened to. Oh, okay. It’s an example. It’s a story. So you’re telling stories all the time. Just think more deliberately about what those stories are.

Well, let me give you an example. I was thinking about the other day. Let’s say that I were to say. Andrea, after this interview, I think I’m gonna hit the golf range and practice something that I saw on YouTube. Okay. That’s a story, that’s a little mini story I can even go on about what I learned on YouTube and, and, and the outcome and what I hope to accomplish.

It’s not relevant. Okay. That’s, it’s odd. It would be awkward. It’s not relevant, but it’s a story. What if I were to make it a little more relevant and use myself as an example of something that would be put into context, and I would say something like, Andrea, let’s talk about practicing and alleviating nerves in public speaking.

I’m a golfer. As any golfer knows, there’s a big difference between hitting the ball well on the range and walking to the first tee, and that’s where we all collapse because we get really nervous when we’re on the first tee. That’s called first tee jitters. Well, public speakers have the same thing, and I think one of the solutions is to practice like a professional golfer does, and practice under extreme conditions and a little stress to get used to being on that first tee.

Now we can have a whole conversation. Okay. So that’s, that would be the beginning of the conversation, but it is a little story about myself, um, and what I’ve experienced on the golf course, but it’s relevant. I’m making it relevant to this conversation, so it doesn’t have to be. We’re not creating the next, you know, uh, three-hour blockbuster movie here.

It can be just something simple to connect with one another, but to make it so much more interesting than to bring up a slide and start hitting numbers data. Insert pie chart here. Insert Excel here. Data, bullet points. That’s why people are put to sleep. And if you want to cut through the noise, you need to keep people alert. People get bored easily, and bad PowerPoint or bad presentations will put people to sleep. We don’t want that. 

AW: So the story does not have to be epic, is what I’m hearing. It doesn’t have to be epic. A vignette or a metaphor is a. I guess effective and appreciated by the audience, even if they’re not conscious of it.

CG: Yes. And by, and when you do those kind of things, you’re, you’re just, you’re already telling a story. Just make it more deliberate. Do more of that. Less of just facts and figures. And if you’re going to use a fact, figure, or statistic, wrap it in some kind of story. Okay. The, yeah, this, um, this is an important number, 82%.

We can increase our profits by 82% if we follow this, my idea, this three-step process that I’ve been researching, okay, that’s information. It’s not a story. Uh, and then you can say. So let’s imagine what this would look like. You come to work in the morning, instead of doing this, you would do this. And just by doing this, by the end of the year, we would increase our profits.

Oh, okay. So now you’re taking me into like a journey. It doesn’t have storytelling does not have to be that complicated, but I think that when people hear storytelling. They kind of tune out because it’s, oh, that’s more for creatives, not for me. 

AW: I think you’re right. We overcomplicate it. Yeah. It doesn’t have to be epic. You don’t have to be a great novelist. 

CG: I love epic. I, when I teach and talk about storytelling and write about storytelling, I get pretty involved, um, you know, pretty deep into it, but doesn’t have to be epic. Everyone’s a storyteller. It’s how deliberate you are about it. 

Storytelling Secrets from Bezos, Buffett & Beyond

AW: So speaking of Epic, let’s talk about Jeff Bezos, your most recent book, the Bezos Blueprint.

Carmine, I absolutely devoured that book. So first of all, I had no idea that he was such an incredible communicator. Like it was all news to me. And then the systems that he was mandating at Amazon were all news to me as well. For the listeners who aren’t familiar with the book and also like me at the time, are not, uh, familiar with Bezos and, and kind of what he did, can you share some of that with the audience?

CG: Jeff Bezos started Amazon in 1994, and he had a challenge, and the challenge was, how do I explain this to people? Because in 1994, the question was not. Why would I buy books online? Although that was one of the early questions. No, the Quest, the first question Jeff Bezos got when he was raising money for Amazon was, what’s the internet?

So by default, Jeff Bezos had to create and think through a lot of communication tactics that would make things easier and more understandable, and I think he got better and better at communication. So I wrote a book called The Bezos Blueprint. The Bezos blueprint. Plays off of many of the tactics that Jeff Bezos pioneered at Amazon to fuel the company’s extraordinary growth.

But then I go into the research behind it and I use a lot of other examples, both from people within Amazon and uh. And other companies that will do some, or other leaders who do something similar. Uh, remember Jeff Bezos did something that I think very few people know about. I’ve written about it. Other people have, but it’s not that commonly known.

Uh, Jeff Bezos banned PowerPoint at Amazon. That was enough for me. When I first heard that, I said, I wanna know more. There’s a story there because who would do that? And then what he did was he banned PowerPoint within meetings at Amazon specifically, and he replaced PowerPoint with the written word.

Well, that is really interesting. And again, it’s, it counterintuitive. Uh, Jeff Bezos, he used to work for a hedge fund. He graduated from Princeton with computer science and electrical engineering. He is a data guy, a technologist. He’s talking about written memos and how writing is so much more effective than PowerPoints in paragraph form.

Right? Like a, like a narrative. Yeah. He said, you gotta write, I want to hear a, I wanna read a memo, like a narrative with like a title and examples and stories and subtitles. Like, like a, a short book. Who does that? Not Steve Jobs didn’t even say anything like that. So to me that was so fascinating and the more I got into it, oh my, my gosh, I just kept learning more and more and more about Jeff Bezos and some of the skills he pioneered.

And I argue they’re kind of advanced, a communication tactic. It’s not public speaking 1 0 1, it’s for aspiring leaders and, uh, more senior executives. Can I tell you one of my favorite? Uh, I’m sure. You know this; you’ve probably read it in the book. Maybe you were gonna ask me about it, but can I tell you about my favorite tactic of Jeff Bezos that No, I’d love to hear, I think is under appreciated.

I’d love to hear the analogies, analogies, metaphors. Yeah. Always thinking about an appropriate or interesting metaphor. A comparison between something that’s new with something that the audience would find familiar. He was very, very creative, and that’s more of an advanced skill. Very few leaders are good at using analogies and metaphors, but boy, when you are, it’s a real skill to have.

So, very few people know this, but do you know what metaphor was used to? Start Amazon. How did Jeff Bezos come up with a term Amazon? 

AW: I forget, but I keep thinking it was, he wanted something that started with A.

CG: That’s the common story; that’s a side effect of what he was looking for. He wanted to find some kind of comparison, uh, and easy to understand metaphor that people would get immediately.

Amazon. The Amazon River is the, is no first, he started with the bookstore. I want to start a bookstore. I wanna create a bookstore, uh, that offers the largest selection of books. Largest selection, largest earth’s largest selection, Earth’s largest river, the Amazon River, Amazon. Oh. And it starts with a, it’s a metaphor.

Amazon itself is a metaphor. He went on to do other metaphors in business, like in the startup world where I live in Silicon Valley, everyone talks about the flywheel. Everyone’s got a flywheel because the flywheel is what gonna helps, uh, create momentum and growth. That comes from Jeff Bezos popularized the flywheel.

He didn’t invent the concept. He read about it and he thought, that’s an interesting metaphor. So he was, he’s creative in that way. Some of the most famous metaphors in business today come from people like Jeff Bezos or another great communicator who is a Warren Buffet, another one of my favorite financial communicators.

AW: Tell me more about Warren Buffett. What do you respect about his communication in particular?

CG: He recently announced that he is gonna step down from Berkshire Hathaway after leading it for some 60 years or so for decades. I think it’s 60 years he’s been writing an annual shareholder letter. That letter is taught even at business schools because Warren Buffett can take complex financial information and make it interesting to read.

How does he do that? Well, he uses metaphors and analogies in every letter, there’s always some kind of an analogy. So the next time you’re watching business news, stock analyst is gonna come on the air and say, we like this investment. It’s got a moat around it. A moat, you know, like a castle and a moat.

That means it’s, uh, hard to, hard to enter, hard to enter that industry, keep the competitors out. That came from Warren Buffett. He first wrote that in a shareholder letter about 20 years ago, and now everybody uses it. It’s shorthand. It’s great. Oh, yeah. There’s a moat around it. We like that stock.

There’s a moat there. Okay. That came from somebody, it came from Warren Buffet who really talked about it, and now it’s kind of attributed to him, but he does all, he does this all the time. So if you, here’s the lesson for everybody. The advanced lesson is if you have a. An idea that’s new, unfamiliar, somewhat complicated, find a familiar, uh, comparison to make it more relatable.

]We call it an analogy, a metaphor, I don’t care what you call it, but find a familiar comparison, and that’s how people will remember it. 

AW: I love it. It’s like, I’ve heard this, this formula, when you’re selling your idea, just say it’s like a. Blank, but blank. Right? 

CG: There you go. That’s an analogy. Absolutely. It’s like a blank. 

AW: So, I wanna ask you before we get into the rapid fire questions, Carmine, I’d love to hear your take on communication these days, particularly in business and with AI. So, how can the most effective communicators or people who are looking to boost their communication effectiveness use ai?

And I’m gonna say maybe other than asking it to help you brainstorm metaphors which I feel like it’s low hanging fruit. Like, if you’re looking for a metaphor, describe a situation and then you can ask. And I, I heard this years ago, actually, um, when people were talking about what to use AI for. 

CG: Okay, don’t make the assumption because I make this mistake too.

Because we would use it for something like that. We understand its uses, don’t make the assumption that everybody knows this because they actually don’t. Uh, when I’m speaking to very high-level business professionals or people who are very comfortable with chat, GPT and ai, and I bring up exactly that, you know, it’s really good for if you wanna brainstorm a metaphor and they look at me like.

You know, with that glazed look, the, the, the how, what, how would you ask it to do that? What do you mean? So, I think there’s still a lot of learning to do. Most people, I don’t think use AI as, I think it’s a good, uh, as a tool that we can use for, IM improved communication. So yes, use it, brainstorm. Give me some suggested comparisons or analogies or metaphors for this idea, and it’ll come up with a few things that may or may not work, but they’ll at least get you to start thinking about the concept in a very different way.

So that leads me to what I think about AI at this point. It is a wonderful tool for communicators because most people, again, are not. Thinking and obsessed with communication as we are. So they’re not really thinking about storytelling, and yeah, they’re not thinking it through. So they do need a little more help.

And AI is terrific for researching and then organizing and, uh, outlining too. Making your structure just a little simpler to follow, pulling out some key phrases, ask it to simplify your writing, and the first thing it’ll do is start identifying jargon and unfamiliar words. Uh, you might find that that is going to be a lot easier for most of your listeners or readers to understand.

So I love it. I love it for that good brainstorming tool. Terrific assistant. Partner, whatever you wanna call it, thought partner, but do not for a second. Think of that AI in any of the platforms replace you, your distinct personality, your lived experiences, your imagination. AI cannot imagine things that haven’t happened before.

Okay, newsflash. You know that it can’t do that. It looks for patterns that have already recurred. I remember speaking to one of the leading world’s leading scientists in ai. He wrote a book about China versus, uh, the US in terms of the AI wars, right? And, uh, I was speaking to him and. I must have been reading a lot of scary AI stuff at the time because I was like, oh my gosh, AI, it’s gonna replace everybody.

It’s gonna take all our jobs. It can do this, and it can do that, and it’ll do that. And the guy looks at me like, you know, he tilts his head well, you know, like a dog when they tilt their head. ’cause they don’t, they’re confused. And he said, you know, it’s, it’s not real, right? It’s not a human, you know, it’s not human.

It can recognize human emotions, but it doesn’t have human emotions. But it was very matter-of-fact, like what are you talking about? So his point was, and he actually later got to this, he said, great tool, amazing tools, but. Nobody wants to hear AI lead them, motivate them, get them to collaborate together as a team.

Uh, nobody wants to hear AI give them a pep talk. It’s, there’s a difference between a real lived experience coming from you, a real emotion, a person who has emotion connecting to another person emotionally, and what AI does. So if you can just. See AI for what it does and use it. I think it’s a fantastic creative brainstorming tool, but don’t just copy and paste.

CG: The story’s gotta come from you. That, and that’s how you set yourself apart. Being unique. Be distinct. 

AW: Yeah. I, you’ve probably read this line a million times as well before, it’s not likely that your job’s gonna be replaced by AI, but it, it will be replaced by someone who knows how to use AI better than you do. I’ve heard that. Thanks for reminding me. That’s a good line. 

CG: I think there’s a lot of truth to that. 

AW: I actually, I stand corrected. You know my point, when I first asked you the question about metaphors and thinking, we all know this. I recently interviewed an AI expert named Jonathan Mast, and he was spewing off these stats, and I kind of had the same attitude.

AW: I was like, you know, everyone’s using it. He goes, no, Andrea, 18% of the US workforce right now is using it daily. And I was like, oh. 

CG: I’m an early adopter. Yeah. Again, I’ve been, and I’ve been using it; not only am I among the 18%, but I think you and I, are probably a subsection of that 18% because very few people are using it for.

This kind of creative brainstorming that we’re talking about. So there’s plenty of room to grow, uh, and learn more about how best to use AI. I’m learning something new every day, so it’s kind of fun. It’s fun for me. 

AW: I was gonna say, send me your tips. I’ll send you mine. I find it fun as well. Uh, before we get to the three rapid-fire questions, one big question.

It’s a big one, Carmine. If the Talk About Talk listeners could change one thing about the way that they communicate to make it more impactful, and you can, this can be written or verbal, whatever context you choose. What’s the one thing that you would suggest where you see people making, getting a lot of traction when they learn this, whatever it is.

CG: Well, you caught me on a week where I’m gonna give you one answer, but. Two weeks ago, I may have given you another answer, but today where I think people can move the needle and it maybe it’s a reflection of my pet peeve and something I get really frustrated about, because people have the curse of knowledge.

They know way too much about their particular industry. They start in the middle constantly. When someone asks you, can you tell me more about this topic? They want you to start. At the top, at the 30,000-foot level, and then drill down. And,  I think this is why people sound confusing. They’re convoluted; they trigger another, uh, set of questions.

I see this all the time on business news. Even the business hosts, the technology experts are saying, can you simplify this quantum computing? What is it before you explain how it works? You know, it’s like, just what is it people are, they don’t ask you, give me the big picture, but they want you to start from the top and then start drilling down.

Um, and, and so, find that that’s where people tend to make things far more complicated than they should be because you’re not starting from the big picture, you’re starting in the middle. And my frustration a lot is when I get directions or instructions from an organization or a bank, you know, you call up your bank and you get all these complicated instructions, and what they’re not doing is they’re not starting at the top.

Here’s a credit card, Carmine, and this credit card allows you to do X, Y, and Z. Let’s talk about Z. Yeah. Okay, great. Top and now. Now we can start going down the funnel, but start at the top and then don’t start from Z because now I’m confused. Why are we even going to Z? Why do we need Z? Start at the top, and you’ll start seeing.

I think if you just start being aware of this. You’ll begin to realize when you’re listening to a really boring presentation or you’re listening to instructions that are somewhat confusing, it’s because they’re not starting at the top. 

AW: Yeah, they’re starting in the middle, so I’m gonna be doing two things. I’m gonna be watching out for this. I would say it’s zooming out first and then zooming in is another way of putting it. I’m gonna be looking for that all the time now. And secondly, I’m gonna be watching the business news through a whole new lens based on this conversation as well. 

CG: Well, my background was as a journalist.

I was a broadcast journalist, and then the last few years of my career as a journalist, I was in television news. And, uh, the reason why I started writing books. Speaking on the topic of communication storytelling is because you’ll appreciate this. When I was at C-N-N-C-B-S, few other outlets, we always went back to the same people.

We always went back to the same sources. Not, we didn’t cover as much politics back then. It was like serious, just business news. Uh, and so we would go to the same analyst, the same economist, the same stock market experts, and I started to ask, why are we going to these same few people? Because they could explain it a lot better.

Uh, so when you have that skill of being able to explain complex material in a way that is interesting and engaging, uh. You’ll stand out, not just on television. Of course, you’ll stand out in any field because people appreciate it, and they crave that simplicity or an interesting way of getting their information.

Wrap-Up & Rapid-Fire Questions

AW: You will be quoted on that. Carmine, that was so well put. Okay. Are you ready for the three rapid-fire questions? 

CG: Yeah. And rapid fire, meaning I only get one sentence, or can I expand or can I expand? Oh, you can elaborate. 

AW: I wanna hear. I wanna hear. 

CG: Okay, so it’s kind of loose, rapid fire.

AW: Yeah. It’s loose, rapid fire. Yeah. Okay. Question number one: Are you an introvert or an extrovert? And how does that affect your communication? 

CG: Okay, years ago, I would’ve said I’m an introvert, which people don’t expect. But, um, then someone called my attention to the fact that there’s different types of introverts and extroverts. So I’m, uh, something called a thinking introvert.

I dunno if you’ve, have you heard of these things? I’ve done a lot of research and reading on introvert and I have not heard about that. I don’t know if it’s thinking introvert, maybe it’s a different term, but it’s kind of a subsection. I am kind of, I’m thoughtful. I am someone who does kind of stay in their own head a lot, but I am also someone who can speak to audiences in big groups.

But that doesn’t mean I’m like a big group kind of guy. I can do it. I could do it comfortably. But usually if I’m speaking to a group of people, I would rather listen to them, get them to talk about themselves, and just sit and listen rather than just talking about myself, which I feel uncomfortable. And someone told me, no, that’s introversion, but it’s the type of introvert who can be an extrovert.

I said, okay. Haven’t read a book on that yet, but I’ll go with it. 

AW: Carmine, you and I couldn’t co-author that book. I have so much to say about that. There’s gotta be a name for it. Yeah. Uh, well, I think people are confusing shyness, which is social anxiety, with introversion, which is getting your energy from solitude.

Okay, well then, I think I’m an introvert first. Yeah. Uh, okay. You’ve already answered this, but maybe you can give us more. My second question is, what are your communication pet peeves? Other than not zooming out before you zoom in any other pet peeves?

CG: The next time you’re listening or watching CNBC, whatever program has a lot of like stock analysts and business professionals, listen carefully to these experts wh,o instead of sounding confident, this stock is moving in this direction because of X, Y, and Z.

They come across as almost like teenagers, almost like kids. Uh uh. So we really like this stock because of, well, you, you know, there there’s just a lot of, um, like, um, well, momentum, right? Right. Is that right? You know? Right. Like, you know, oh my God, my head’s exploding. Just thinking about that right now. And it’s not just a few; it’s constantly during the day.

Right. Well, no, don’t say right. You’re the expert. That’s why you’re on television. You tell me. So, but I think this is an example of something that a lot of people suffer with, and, uh, and it diminishes the perception of confidence, fewer filler words, and you don’t have to start every sentence with, and then end it with Right. You know? Right. Those things diminish the strength of your message, so be aware of it also. 

AW: Well, one of my pet peeves is when. Interviewees start every answer with great question. And I don’t think you did that once. I don’t think you did. So when, when someone interviews me, I have this rule, I’m allowed to say it once, and I usually say, I only say this when I mean it.

That is a great question. And then I answer it. So, the third question, is there a podcast or a book that you find yourself recommending a lot lately? It could be related to communication skills or not. 

CG: I tend to like podcasts that have interviews with really interesting people and I will tend to follow those that have more interviews with creative types, uh, but fun interviews with creatives.

For example, if I were to look on my Spotify list, you know, let’s be honest of what I have on my podcast list, it would probably be like Dak Shepherd who has that armchair expert, Dak Shepherd, because he. Interviews a lot of people who are authors or historians or Hollywood types or creatives. So I like learning from a lot of creatives.

Uh, smartless, you know, that’s another one that I tend to enjoy. I think I lean toward those because they interview a lot of Hollywood types, but also directors, creatives, and storytellers. So I’m always just intrigued by someone who’s an interesting character. And books too is, I’m a history buff, so I tend to read a lot of history, but history that’s really fun and interesting and engaging to read because getting, we’ll end here I think, or wrap this up because it’ll come full circle. 

Almost every major event throughout history, if you study it or read about it, there’s always someone who triggered that event, and they had to be really persuasive. So I like to read history books because I learn a lot about communication in history.

AW: Yeah. And it’s stories. It’s his story, right? 

CG: I love got people who can write a book, uh, they’re called like nonfic or, or, um, nonfiction narratives. Uh, I think that’s the category. So they’re real history books, but written in a narrative form. And I always loved that because I, I’ve told the authors who I’ve read, uh, sometimes I’ll tell them how is it that I knew exactly what was going to happen?

I still had to turn to the page to the next chapter. How did you do that? I already know the history of it and you made me wanna read till the end. That’s what a good writer can do. So I appreciate good writing.

AW: Amazing, Carmine. Is there anything else you wanna share with the talk about talk listeners that will help boost their communication effectiveness? 

CG: I love to keep in touch with them. Find me on LinkedIn. I think I’m the only Italian Carmine in California. There’s not many. There’s not many of us, so just look for Carmine Gallo, the author. If it pops up and I’m in California, that’s probably me. But, uh, yeah, I, I love to keep in touch or just go to my website, carmine gallo.com.

But those are both great ways of actually contacting me so we can have a conversation. 

AW: Amazing. I’m gonna put links to your LinkedIn to CarmineGallo.com and to your fantastic books in the show notes. I wanna say. Thank you so much, Carmine. I said at the beginning, I’ve been looking forward to this interview for a long time, and you exceeded my expectations.

I really appreciate you sharing your time and your expertise with me and the listeners. Thank you. Oh, thank you. 

CG: Thanks for inviting me.

AW: Thank you again, Carmine. It was wonderful to finally have the opportunity to talk communication with you. Now. As always, I’m gonna summarize. With three main points that I hope you’ll take away.

1. Focus Like a Minimalist

The first point is focus. Carmine spoke a lot about minimalism. This is about precision and brevity. And interestingly, how it takes courage to have this focus to be a minimalist in your communication. More focus, fewer words, less clutter on your slides.

2. You Are the Storyteller, Not the Slides

This relates to the second point that I wanna reinforce. When you give a presentation, you are the storyteller, not the slides. Think of Steve Jobs, minimalist slides, black background, one simple image, maybe two words. The slides support you. They do not tell your story.

3. Nervous? That’s Normal—Now Practice It.

And the third point, if you’re nervous about presenting, just know this. You’re supposed to be nervous. It’s supposed to be that way. So what can you do about it? Practice being nervous. Go out of your way to put yourself into situations where you feel anxious. Raise your hand to lead every meeting and present every talk.

This is what high-performance athletes do. They practice hard until competition day comes, and then muscle memory sets in. Practice really does make perfect. And that is it for this episode. Thanks again to Carmine, and you can check out the show notes for links to everything that we discussed, and of course, to connect with both of us.

Now, if you enjoyed this episode, I’m gonna ask you to please leave, talk about talk a rating or a review. This helps us get discovered by more folks, and I really appreciate it. If you’re not subscribed yet, just click subscribe or follow. Okay. Thanks for listening and talk soon.

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