Why do you think Katie, that priorities are shifting like this? Well, I so quickly. Oh

yeah. Well, I think the pandemic, even though I know we're tired talking about it, it did just shift culturally everyone's view around what a quality life looks like. And I think having hybrid opportunities is a huge plus for many people. They're wanting to work at different hours. They're wanting to be able to kind of set their pace. They want to be more connected with their kids. They want to be able to live in multiple places. They want to travel while they work. And so if you have those opportunities to really leverage them. And people are looking for jobs that work for their life, rather than finding a job and creating a life around it. So the whole kind of center of why I go to work has changed.

It's interesting, Katie, we often have to coach the organizations we're working with that the candidate is now interviewing you. And it didn't used to be that way. And there used to be a whole slate of candidates you could be looking at, but now to get the top leaders, you have to realize that they're interviewing you. And I think part of the shift too is generational. Am I allowed to say that we're both Gen Xers?

Oh yes, I'm true die-hard Gen Xer. Me too.

And we know how to code switch, right? We can switch boomer, we can switch millennial. And you and I remember when it was all about how do you work with millennials? How do you come so long millennials? How do you make millennials effective? Well, now we're talking Gen Z. And I don't know about you, but I am pumped about this next generation of leaders. What are you seeing in this next generation of leaders that we need to be looking out for, but also that excites you. Oh,

well, I think we are about to see a really big revolution in our workforce with Gen Z. I'm very excited about it, partly because they've grown up in really unique circumstances. So their agility, their capacity for innovation, their hunger to create in their work is so much bigger than we've seen before. And we are all leading organizations that need to be more nimble. We need to be more agile. We need to create innovation in order to stay afloat. They're the ones who are going to have the answers for us. So I think embracing that is really important. However, I do think our idea of generational mindset needs to shift a little bit. I see more, I would say it's less generational and more cultural mindset oriented. There are some Gen Z people who think a lot more like boomers than they do 20 year olds. And there are some 35 year olds who think more like a 20 year old than they should their own age. And so part of what we have to do, because you're right, we've shifted from this market where the organizations are in control of the workforce to the workers are now the ones leading it, kind of like the housing market change from buyer to seller market. And so we have to do a better job recruiting to the mindset, the younger, more agile, more digitally informed mindset. So part of it is we have to make sure that we're talking about our organizations online. Most people are looking for jobs online way before they ever apply for the job. So how do you look on- And looking at reviews. Yeah. How do you look on Glassdoor? What does Yelp say about you? What are your Google reviews? People are looking at that and opting out of organization, even applying for an organization because of what's on there. They want to be a part of an organization that's not just winning like from budget or mission. They want one that's winning in terms of people and caring for people and relationships and authentic culture. And that is a greater value for this next generation. And it's also what they bring to their work, which is pretty exciting.

You touched on something that I've heard before, so I want to dig back into that. You said Generation Z, some of them are more like boomers. Talk more about that and why you think that's the case.

Well, I think Gen Z is sort of rebounding a little off of Millennials. When we were working with Millennials, especially when they were in their young 20s, it was all they had a lot of head knowledge. They're the first digital natives. They grew up in the information age, so they could talk big about leadership, but most of them had not done it a lot And so they came in big and bold and confident and then we're sort of like why aren't you showing up to meetings on time? Like how am I having to educate you on this Gen Z is different? They are well aware that they don't know what they're doing and they also are growing up in the middle of a huge mental health crisis And almost everyone is struggling with being overwhelmed, stress, and anxiety. They're very interested in managing that for themselves and that's where it feels like a boomer. They're saying, tell me exactly the job I'm going to do. What exactly are your expectations? And they're going to self-measure because their self-awareness is really incredible. I'm going to self-measure if I can deliver on your expectations. And if I can't, I'm not going to take the job. A good old millennial or a gen-exer, we're going to say yes no matter what. I'm like, I have no idea how to do that job, but I'm going to say yes. A Gen-Z is going to be much more measured in how they go into that structure consistency is how you minimize stress and anxiety. They need more from us on that end. That's

a really good way to sum up how you prepare for an interview with a Gen Z leader is to be answering those questions. That's really helpful. So it's one thing to get a talented leader in the door, Gen Z or millennial, it's another to retain them. And of course, working with lots of churches and nonprofits, ministry organizations on roles that they're hiring, we're seeing national averages of people staying that are starting to shrink. Like 12 months, 16 months, two years on average, which is less. Millennials and Gen Z leaders are changing roles far more frequently than the older generations. How can we as leaders create an environment where the talented leaders we bring in actually stick around and stay?

Right. Well, it's competitive. They're getting wooed and recruited to other places with more pay and better benefits and more lifestyle wholeness. And so they're taking advantage of that. We grew up in an era where we didn't get to just change jobs. We're like, you don't stay three years. They don't even want to interview on their resume. And millennials and Gen Z are being recruited away. And so we do have to have really clear pathways of advancement. That would be one thing that we can really do to work with younger generations. How am I gonna progress? But then also really tapping into their inner entrepreneur or their inner creative spirit. This generation has been making their own podcasts. My son was in the fifth grade when he started making his own podcast. They've been online, they create pictures. They are creators. They want to be a part of creating things. They, and they're very entrepreneurial. Half the kids I know have nonprofits that they've started. They are making no money, but they're still doing it. And so I like to really encourage leaders to think more in terms of educating young leaders on what it means to be an entrepreneur, not just an entrepreneur. You can actually create in our organization. What if you could take all of your best ideas and bring them into this team and this organization with people who know you and love you and believe in you, and you get to bring all of these ideas and grow them over time in a community. There really probably isn't a Gen Z kid who wouldn't want to hear that. We rarely talk about that. We talk about deliver on your job. We talk about we're moving pieces. We'll let you know what will happen. Stay here. You need to pay your dues. We're giving the opposite message. This generation wants to create the future with us. They don't need to write the vision. They want to help create the strategy for it. If we include them in that, they will stay for much longer.

Oh gosh. An entrepreneur, not an entrepreneur. That's really insightful. I haven't thought about

that before. We have to create our organizations to allow for that. It's not just about developmental steps. I'm going to move you over here, and then you're going to lead a group that's bigger over here, and then you're going to run to that campus or to this team. It's how do I actually hold you in a team and let you create and innovate in the space you get to lock into with relationships? And

so many older leaders, Katie, are threatened by all of those ideas and all that creativity. Speak to those leaders. Oh

gosh, well, I do think there is a need to harness all of that energy, but the first part is to actually listen to ideas. Most kids, most young adults, aren't looking to have, they know they don't have the answers, but they do want to be listened to. And you're talking about a generation that grew up without stable homes, they got taken out of school for two years, they lived, you know, their development or years were very fractured. Their only commodity for that was to have ideas and to create and connect with people around this. If we can embrace the conversation, we actually can harness that into things that might actually do something. I encourage every leader to spend at least some of their time in like R&D mentality, and every employee being able to do it. Even if it's 5% of your time, you get to just create new ideas or we're going to talk about things totally off the wall. All of that is not only just for an idea, it's also to create engagement with your employees.

Yeah. So start by listening and that will encourage your entrepreneurs. Here's another thing too, Katie, I'd love your thoughts on it's been common practice in hiring to look at somebody's resume and if they've moved around a lot, like every two years, that's a real big red flag. Not the case anymore? No,

not the case at all. I think, I think most young leaders are using their twenties as an internship because we've not done a great job in our school systems or colleges actually preparing people for a job they want to do. They're a little unclear. They don't have a lot of experience. They haven't tested things. Most people in their young 20s have not had a part-time job or six part-time jobs like you should in high school. And so they're using their early 20s to experiment. Right. And I would say when I'm looking to hire someone, I'm actually looking for someone who's had a few experiences. Because they are coming in with self-awareness to say, I like doing this, I'm passionate about this, these things don't work for me. And as long as we can have an honest conversation about that, we can decide if we're a good fit or not a good fit.

So this is a whole mindset change as you as you evaluate resumes, which is a big thing, a really big thing. What are some other opportunities we might be missing right now, Katie? As we build out teams, are there things that you see, common things that organizations are overlooking?

Yes. Well, I think young leaders, we all kind of look towards that. I think what we're missing are older leaders. So right now, the women over 55 who are kind of in empty nest season, it's our first generation of fully educated women, mostly college grad prepared if not further. They have 20 years experience navigating work and home life and they now have empty nests and they're ready to do something. And the workforce is probably going to be 15% women over 55 in the next five to 10 years. It is a huge pool of talent and experience and maturity and wisdom that if we do not access it properly, we're gonna lose it to other places. And so churches and nonprofits particularly have not done a great job accessing this. And so I just wanna really encourage people, if you know people or if you have jobs open, even connecting intergenerational teams, you might have five new employees over the next couple of years. What if 50% were Gen Z and 50% were women over 50? What you might be able to get by cross pollinating and creating an intergenerational team? The research on that is exponential, the return on that kind of investment. Well,

and the work, Katie, you do in helping organizations prepare for that and be ready for that is so important, because so many organizations think they are and they're not. I think that's really helpful. Katie, we often will work with organizations who give us their wish list for their ideal leader or candidate. And you can imagine all kinds of things are on that wish list and it's just not out there. I mean, Jesus wouldn't be good enough for the job, and they probably wouldn't hire him. And... No, he's always

late. I mean, for heaven's sakes.