Plato's Ambiguous Stance on Astrology

In episode 435 Dr. José Manuel Redondo joins the show to discuss the life and work of the 5th century philosopher Proclus, and how he integrated astrology and theurgy with Platonism. José is an astrologer from Mexico City who wrote a PhD dissertation on Proclus in 2015. We met at an astrology conference in 2010, and have been talking about doing an episode on Proclus for years now. After last month's episode on the Lots where I touched on Plato, the Myth of Er, and the concept of the guardian daimon, I thought it would be a great time to expand on some of those points by talking to José about Proclus and expanding the discussion of Platonism to include the Timaeus and other Platonic metaphysics. During the course of the episode we talk about Proclus and how he used astrology together with theurgy as a tool for working with the gods and invoking them in his daily life, and we ended up touching on a bunch of other topics in the process, including: Plato's creation myth called the Timaeus, and how it posits that the universe is a living creature and god that possesses a soul and intelligence, and how some later astrologers may have been influenced by this and shared a similar conceptualization of the cosmos. How Plato's conceptualization of reincarnation in the Timaeus and the Myth of Er influenced later astrologers and philosophers such as Proclus. The Platonic idea of fate being a law that is conditional, and allows for choice. The role of the daimon in Proclus and other Platonists, and the question of whether it is an internal or external entity that guides the native to fulfill their destiny. Proclus' birth chart that is preserved in the biography his student Marinus wrote for him, as well as how his student says that eclipses occurred around the time of Proclus' death. How the integration of Platonic metaphysics with astrology is part of what led to its downfall once the Roman Empire became Christian, and how some of the Platonic notions about daimons or the cosmos being alive caused conflict with Christian theology.   And many other topics. You can find out more about José on his website and Facebook page: http://capulus.com.mx https://www.facebook.com/Capulus7 This episode is available in both audio and video versions below. Resources Mentioned in This Episode José Manuel Redondo, "Astrology is to Theurgy What Astronomy is to Theology in Late Antique Platonism: Remarks on Proclus’s Theurgy," in Initiatic Religious Experience in Neoplatonism. From Late Antiquity to the Renaissance, 2023. [PDF of article] [Academia link] Plato, Timaeus, excerpt Alexander Jones, "The Horoscope of Proclus", Classical Philology, 93 (1999), pp. 81-88. Proclus' birth chart Timestamps 00:00:00 Introduction 00:05:40 Proclus 00:30:15 Platonism 00:55:35 Birth chart of Proclus 01:21:00 Timaeus 01:41:00 Myth of Er and fate 02:02:10 Christianity, daimons, and astrology 02:32:02 Plato and astrology 02:54:10 Middle Platonism and Neoplatonism 03:01:18 Proclus and astrology 03:15:22 Was Proclus an astrologer? 03:25:25 Jose’s work 03:29:08 Credits Watch the Video Version of This Episode Watch the video version of this episode on Proclus and astrology on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_JOT7Wjq64   – Transcript A full transcript of this episode is available: Episode 435 transcript Listen to the Audio Version of This Episode Listen to the audio version of this episode or download it as an MP3: