Retrouvez l'épisode en version française ici : https://www.gdiy.fr/podcast/ivan-zhao-vf/

"We try to be not innovative."

That's how Ivan Zhao built one of the most innovative products of this decade.

Notion isn't a spreadsheet.

It's not project management.

It's not a CRM.

Ivan calls it "the LEGO for software".

Born in rural Xinjiang, China, where electricity arrived when he was 8 Ivan now runs a $10 billion company used by more than 100 million people.

At 17, Ivan left China for Vancouver.

At university, three worlds collided: art, philosophy, and computing. That last one led him down a rabbit hole, he dove into the history of the web, then the history of computing itself. There, he discovered a forgotten vision that would become Notion.

But Notion's origin story isn't about disruption. It's about bringing back that vision: computing should be as universal as reading and writing.

While most startups chase feature lists, Ivan spent 5 years chasing that bigger idea. This path nearly killed the company. Ivan rebuilt Notion from scratch three times.

Today, Notion consolidates several tools for companies like Qonto, L'Oréal, and Toyota, saving them time and money.

But the real revolution is happening under the hood.

Notion now spends most of its time building infrastructure that works with every AI model to unlock their full power for all customers.

In this episode, Ivan reveals:

The mistake that inspired Notion's entire philosophy
The "sugar-coated broccoli" strategy: how to hide computing power inside familiar tools
Why Notion's UI took 5 years to become "simple"
Why Notion doesn't build AI models but uses them all
How 300 Notion programmers do the work of 3,000

Ivan's path proves that the best products come from understanding history, not just chasing trends.

A masterclass in building products with philosophical depth.

You can contact Ivan on X.

TIMELINE:

00:00:00 : The LEGO software that replaces them all
00:09:53 : The culture shock: from "work to work" to "live to work"
00:27:39 : How art shaped Notion's design
00:40:12 : Computing should be as universal as reading and writing
00:52:49 : The forgotten pioneers of computing
01:01:08 : Great products' secret is rebuilding from scratch
01:09:36 : The central brain for your entire company
01:21:16 : Is it possible to run an entire company with Notion?
01:30:36 : The AI dilemma, which model to choose?
01:39:53 : AI agents are revolutionizing software development
01:48:18 : Everyone can build their own tools with Notion

We referred to previous GDIY episodes :

A few recent episodes in English :

We spoke about :

Reading Recommendations :

What Is a Complex System?, James Ladyman

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