Right. And you mentioned in the book the increasingly clinical approach took child boats, took on a moral and political shape too, right? I mean, it was associated with feminism and progress. Can you explain that?

It was really interesting to learn some of this history because the fight for pain relief in childbirth was such a feminist issue for a long time. And so pain and suffering was sort of, you know, part and parcel of childbirth and just this burden that women had to bear and you know, this is what you have to go through. And so when there first started to be options for pain relief that emerged, whether that was chloroform or ether or those earlier methods or some of the ones that came later, there was actually some real resistance to it, you know, on the part of the church or even on the part of some physicians or communities who were like, no, no, like childbirth is meant to be really painful. And so when what was called twilight sleep emerged, which was this sort of, you know, anesthetic cocktail that didn't actually provide pain relief, but it provided like annesia so that you wouldn't remember exactly what had happened. It was pioneered in this clinic in Germany. And once American women started finding out about it, they started going to Germany and drove sort of have this twilight sleep where they didn't remember the pain of childbirth and then went back to the US and were, you know, kind of praising it and passing on the dogma. And so then there was like this real feminist activism where they held meetings and campaigns to try to convince doctors here that they should be providing this twilight sleep. And so that feminist campaign, you know, back then was really around pain relief and childbirth. And the sort of feminist like issues of childbirth have evolved a little bit over time. So, you know, in the 19, like 70s and 80s, there were some feminist campaigns around like we think that male partners should be allowed in the delivery room instead of having them be down the hall in the quote unquote, you know, store club, pacing around with their cigars or whatever. Or you know, the desire to not be like have everything completely shaved before birth. And so feminism really has been involved in a lot of the gains that we've made in terms of kind of making childbirth feel like a more, I guess, humane experience. But then at the same time, I think that there's also been some distancing in some cases between the feminist movement and childbirth. I think maybe particularly kind of around second wave feminism because there was this idea of like we're sort of trying to liberate ourselves from only being in this role as wives and mothers and caretakers. And so, you know, there were sort of other causes that maybe seemed like they were more central to that particular fight. Right.

Right.

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