Andrew Hellmich: I love having the opportunity to record these interviews, I look forward to speaking with every single guest. Sometimes though, I get especially excited about having someone on and that's the case for today for a few reasons. Number one, this photographer gets stuff done. They hear or learn about an idea or strategy, a tactic a win from another photographer, and off they go to put it into practice for their own business. Number two, she's been at this photography thing for a long time as an outsider following along I see her weekly emails, or occasional posts in the members group turning up in the live training courses and master classes. It's obvious. She's as passionate and committed as she's always been. She's Canadian, and who doesn't love the Canadians. And number four, she has been on the podcast before she shared a ton in the members only episode where she generated $30,000 in sales with her 30 days of gorgeous promo. I'm talking about Laurie Brown. And I am truly rapt to have her back with us now. Laurie, welcome.

Laurie Brown Thanks, Andrew. It's nice to be back. Nice to see you this time. Because last time was just over the phone. I think it was pre pandemic. And we hadn't gotten used to the whole zoom thing.

Andrew Hellmich: I know, it's totally normal now to leave the cameras on and everyone's comfortable with it, which is pretty cool. It's an honor. Are you seeing that with clients too? Are you utilizing zoom now more than ever?

Laurie Brown: Oh, yeah. And use Zoom regularly.

Andrew Hellmich: For what for sales or to build connection?

Laurie Brown: For consults, andsometimes sales. So always for pre session design consult, because it allows me to share visuals. And when you're talking about money, too, it's nice to not only say it out loud, but to show it. And then also visuals in terms of like client wardrobe pieces, I'll show them finished images and be like, did you want to wear this I can have it ready for you. And then also, I don't use it that much for sales. But if somebody is super indecisive and needs multiple visits to finish their sales, then I'll be like, Okay, do you want to do this last one over zoom instead of a person? And I've done that.

Andrew Hellmich: Nice. So do you say pre shoot consultation or post shoot consultation?

Laurie Brown: Pre shoot. So I custom design every session. And so it's all about getting to know the person and how they dream of being photographed. And so we kind of walk them through a creative exercise to learn, like kind of where they're going with what they want. Like whether it's branding, like so I could be diving deep into what their brand is. Or if it's Boudoir or something. I want to know what kind of images they're dreaming of, because everyone is so different. And I'm gonna give you the example I give to everyone. When I explain why I do this. I had a client last year for 40 over 40. And her description of her style was Victorian, vampire Gothic. And I'm like, okay, that's not everyone. So we're not going to do any light and airy. Or like you know pearls and frilly things like that, we're gonna go into more of like, the Gothic know that we didn't do anything, an opulent but like she had a very specific style. And I want to know that in advance so that I can cater to that and possibly go buy something new for my wardrobe. Or for a backdrop or just some kind of a proper build something I get my husband to build things for me.

Andrew Hellmich: So good. So I love that so and for the listener who can't actually see you right now, like you're sitting in your studio slash office, and I can see that you're surrounded by that there's a beautiful black and white framed piece of wall art next to you. There's wall art up behind you. There's a mannequin with a gorgeous dress or gown. There's acrylic blocks behind them, and it looks like you're in a showroom for a photographer.

Laurie Brown: Yes. That's the whole idea is that people walk in here and they're like, oh, everyone, actually, she can never go. Everyone is like, "I want that. Right there. I'll take that."

Andrew Hellmich: So just describe that for the listener. What is that?

Laurie Brown: Oh, sorry. It's um, she's wearing my black tulle skirt. And she it's like a black and white framed portrait for the wall. So not everyone does the exact same frame but they all want that pose.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. So there's a beautiful looking woman with her legs crossed, you know, hand up under the chin look very elegant. It looks great.

Laurie Brown: Yeah, yeah, it's super popular pose and then also outfit like, I tell everyone you're wearing a black tulle skirt, whether you like it or not, because everyone does and everyone looks good in it. It fits every size. I've had it on every age from like, I think the youngest person is maybe eight and the oldest is 77.

Andrew Hellmich: Nice. So for the listener who doesn't know you or hasn't heard your earlier interview, just tell me a little bit about your business. You focus on women's specifically and it's boudoir, glamour, would you call it headshots and branding?

Laurie Brown: Yeah, I like to just like simplify to branding and boudoir. Sometimes I reference legacy. But yeah, I think it's just easier to say branding and boudoir so people understand that like, I do headshots if we're talking SEO I'll definitely say headshots, not branding or personal branding. So headshots, branding all that and then boudoir which I kind of leaned more into that instead of glamour because first of all, I don't really love the word glamour I never did. And also I found there was one client who came and when she was packing up her things to go, we've done, we finished the shoot, this was years ago. And I said, Is there anything else you wanted to do? And she said, No, no, we're good. But I noticed that she was putting some light like I saw some lingerie in her bag, and she has not brought that out. So I'm like, Okay, I think she chickened out. So I'd rather be upfront about it and be like it's boudoir and then the boudoir can be translated into what boudoir is for you. So for some people, it's you know, more simple, fully clothed, not too revealing, but it's just more in the posing and what you would maybe describe as glamour.

Andrew Hellmich: Got it. Okay, so you call it boudoir and then let them or you discover what that means to them.

Laurie Brown: Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: So tell me you're based in Canada. I said you're... are you in or near Calgary?

Laurie Brown: I'm in Calgary. Yup.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay so that's where most of your clients are coming from. So just tell me Calgary. Is that a big city? Like, is there an abundance of women to draw on to feed your business?

Laurie Brown: Oh yeah, it's a really big city. It's not like a Vancouver or Toronto, but it's still a major city. And I have people coming from all over the place, actually. So the furthest would be New Brunswick, which is on the other side of the country. So some people come from all over Alberta. So I've got someone coming in February, who's from Grand Prairie, which is like, that's a plane ride. And I've had people come from Edmonton, which is a three hour drive, St. Albert, which is really close to Edmonton, so probably the same, three, three and a half hour drive.

Andrew Hellmich: Nice. Okay, just tell me again, for the listener who isn't familiar with your business, did you get into this because you love photography? Did you get into this and build it from scratch? You know, coming out of high school? Or did you leave another job and start this?

Laurie Brown: Oh, I left my corporate job 11 years ago. And it was for family reasons. So my goal, though, was to always replace that income. So whether it be going back to a corporate job, or not, I wanted to make up for all that time I spent staying home with the kids. So at the time, when I left, I was doing photography as a side gig, I hadn't figured out exactly the kind of photographer I wanted to be I was doing like the family photoshoots in the park. I had already figured out though, that I didn't want to be giving up my weekends. So I skipped weddings completely, there was no chance I was going to do that. And I very quickly decided that I would not be doing shoots on weekends.

Andrew Hellmich: Got it. And then was the number one aim then to replace that corporate income? Or was it to you know, feel good about yourself about, you know, contributing to the household income? And what was the reason for wanting the extra money?

Laurie Brown: Well, for one I'm not the kind of person who can just clean all day, I get super bored. I like to have a more of a challenge and a creative outlet. And it just makes sense to make money while I'm doing it. So yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Have you replaced the corporate income? And if you have when were you able to do that?

Laurie Brown: Yeah, I would say that last year, I did. I don't know if I have exactly replaced it. Because by now I think I'd be making like a lot more. But I was still I was making six figures when I left. And so and now I'm making six figures as a photographer. I'm able to expense trips to like Phoenix and Italy and stuff. So I would say that that has some bonus perks. But sure be the trips that I took when I was in the corporate world going to cold lake and medicine doctor, you know, just say, You know what I mean, Cold Lake is just as it's described, there's a cold like this in northern Alberta. It's not quite as exotic is going to

Andrew Hellmich: It doesn't sound like it. While we're talking numbers, can you give us an idea of your revenue now?

Laurie Brown: Yeah. So do you want to know annual revenue?

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah. That's funny, because before we started recording, I said, Do you have you got some numbers ready? And you said you've got a spreadsheet? What's your little spreadsheet called off to the side there?

Laurie Brown: Yeah, it's called numbers for Andrew. I knew I had to be ready. And so I've got a whole bunch of numbers set aside for you. So last year, it was my best year so far. I made about 189,000.

Andrew Hellmich: Unreal

Laurie Brown: This year, by June I hit six figures, which was a huge accomplishment for me. And I was like, Oh, this is amazing because I, you always want to increase year over year. I although then what happened was my marketing had taken a real dip. And I wanted to run promotions. But I knew I didn't have time for the consultations. And I didn't want to do that while I was away on vacation in the summer. So I kind of sabotage myself there for really hitting the numbers that I wanted to, but I am still on par to probably reach the income, like just match it from last year. And my average sale is increasing because I did change. I'm always changing things, to be honest with you, I listen to your podcast, it's like my Monday morning ritual is to listen to your podcasts and get new ideas and implement them. Probably if I had just did run the exact same promo as last year, I probably would have done even better this year. But I like changing things. Because the promo that I did last year, I was running a 40 over 40 It was $400 that included the hair makeup, and you could walk away with one image. And most people didn't. I made really good money on that promo. But there were a few people who did. And I put so much my energy into these photo shoots, that I just decided that's not going to happen. So I'd rather have less business and make more money per person because I have more time with my family. I have more time for my own personal activities. And and I'm fine with that. So this year, I've photographed 39 people so far. I also have a prepay option for them. So about half of people who have the option of prepaying do so. My average sale is almost 4400.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow, that is awesome. So tell me then Laurie, like what were you doing that was allowing the no sales to get through? And what have you changed to stop that?

Laurie Brown: Now it's my collection only. There is kind of a second option. But I only bring it up with people who I want to bring it up with. So I can divert them into like, I don't call them minis. But for the photography lingo, we would call it a mini where I'm photographing people back to back, so four people a day instead of one. So what I tell people is you're getting a custom session, you're getting it for 495. Normally a custom session like this, you'd be paying 1500 to book. Either way is by collection earning. And my collection started 3000 go up from there.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. So this is like serious, qualifying before anyone gets in front of your camera. Like they know where they're going to be spending $4,000.

Laurie Brown: Yeah, yeah. Cuz I only want a series people I can only photograph like, my goal is actually photograph 80 people, I'll be way less than that, obviously, except got 39. And I think I have just a handful more shoots for the rest of the year. But it's been worthwhile because if each of them is spending 4300, then that's, that's worthwhile for me.

Andrew Hellmich: This is so good. So you've totally discounted the idea of giving away a free session and including a free print or credit like your women are spending right from the start.

Laurie Brown: They're actually spending more to be part of the campaign because a custom session, I don't really have a session fee is more of a beginner retainer. So you're paying 50% of my lowest collection to book a custom session, and to book 40 over 40 It's 495. Because I'm taking away the risk. You're not obliged to buy anything, you'll still be part of the exhibit, and all that stuff. But of course I you know, I'm like why would you want to spend your time doing all of this not have any of the photos. So people are coming in who are serious about it. So they spend 495, and then I gift them an extra image with their collection purchase. So really, at minimum they're spending 3500.

Andrew Hellmich: Right, but in the average that was 44 because most women are spending or some women are spending a lot more.

Laurie Brown: Yeah, so my last, Oh, and earlier you were talking about, I almost forgot, I got a couple men this year, I just mostly photograph women. But so my last, yesterday, she was 3700 before taxes what I made. The shoot before that was about 9000. The shoot before that was 5000. The shoot before that was 5000 and so on. So I'm really trying to keep in the four to five figure range if I can, as and then if I if people are going to do like a mini, then it's going to be I've got four of them. So if each of them only spends 700 then it still is a worthwhile day for me.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. Okay. Now I remember like talking to you. I don't know it must be five or eight or 10 years ago, and then you're sort of throwing mud at the wall and going to different things and trying to get things going. It sounds like you've really found your stride now and you've been running these 40 over 40 campaigns for a while now as well.

Laurie Brown: This is the second year. Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Oh as a second year. Is this the second year? So when we did...

Laurie Brown: Well, I guess you will just call some names at... So 30 Days of Gorgeous, I ran that. I did 15 Fabulous, but it's always been like at least 35 and older and women.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. Okay, so that's your, that's your target client, your ideal client. So what is it? Why are the women lining up to get into this, these sessions with you? Is it to be featured in the exhibition? Is it something they've always wanted? Have you been in the email inbox for the last five years? And they're finally pulling the trigger? What is it getting them over the line?

Laurie Brown: Yeah, I think all of the above I definitely have those people who are like, 'I've been following you for years. I'm finally ready.' And I'm like, why don't I never heard your name before. But yeah, there's those lurkers for sure. I ran giveaways sometimes. And so that can generate some interest. But I would say I like 100%, not no. 90% attribute all my success to your podcast. I know. I sound like a huge kiss ass right now. But I really do. I get access to so many people with different ideas, which as you alluded to earlier, I've been taken advantage of so I sign up for the courses. I you know, go check out their education like Julie Christie. I was part of her education platform for a long time. I'm not anymore, but she's an excellent coach and has a really great program. I've had Ian Sim helped me out with some things I took John Glaser's course. Yeah, there's like a huge list. And I just picked the pieces that work for me.

Andrew Hellmich: Sure. And I love that. But I still I still don't know why. Let's say take John Glaser, for example, like his business is built on running lead ads. And he offers a basically a free session and a credit. But your women. You know, they're coming in and, and handing out $500, like, right from the get go. And you tell them that, you know, prices start at 3000 plus. Why aren't they being scared away? Like why are they saying yes?

Laurie Brown: Okay, yeah. So some of them say no. I think it's all about the value add, and really listening to people. People want their stories to be heard. And so if you hop on a phone call, and just ask somebody about, you know, hey, why is now a good time for you to do a session like this? Why do you want to be part of 40 over 40 and be part of this community, because it really is a community. And I think it really, I knew I could push the envelope and go for that more luxury level. Because I proved it last year. And I hired the professional videographer, I made sure I got featured on TV. So I have all the proof in the pudding. And so I can speak confidently to it and be like you want to be part of this. This isn't kind of a big deal. There's only 40 spots. And I'm confident in my work because I do believe I don't say this to people necessarily. But I, I believe a boudoir photographer especially can make or break a person's confidence. So if if you go to the wrong person, they might make you never want to be photographed again. And I'm someone who is a safe place. I know you are going to love your images. So when people hear that kind of confidence, because most people I'm talking to they're not someone who considers themselves photogenic. And so they're like, Okay, I can trust her. She's photographed other people like me who are not, you know, 25 years old and a size zero.

Andrew Hellmich: Got it. Okay. I still get that. It sounds amazing. And I can see why you're like you would be the perfect photographer for them. But what is it they're signing up for? Like you? I mean, you've said campaign, exhibition, you know, they want to be part of this community. Where are they actually...

Laurie Brown: Are you asking what that entails?

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, are they signing up for something more than just photos of themselves? I mean, I know they want the experience and want the photos. Are they contributing to a charity? Are they doing this for breast cancer? Are they doing this to support, you know, moms that aren't privileged? I don't know, I'm throwing things out there. Like why are they signing up?

Laurie Brown: I think it's to be part of a community and to share their story and just to treat themselves because a lot of them have been through something terrible. Like the girl who's here yesterday. She's 41 years old. And at the beginning of the pandemic was diagnosed with breast cancer. So her photoshoot yesterday, she's had a double mastectomy and no reconstruction. So like she has a story I think that she wants to share so she could hire me privately and do a photoshoot but I think that she wants to share her story and be part of that community. For my gala that I hold I do make it a charitable event. So last year what I did It was a ran, I had a raffle that I contacted one of my favorite charities to participate in. So they're called Made by Mama. And it's a, it's a charity that supports mothers, there's no red tape to access them, you can self nominate. So if you need food, cribs, diapers, any of the above things that moms need, that you can access it through this charity. So I really liked the people who work there. I know them personally just because the other charitable work that I do. And so they came on board, we sold tickets, you had to be at the event, you could buy a raffle ticket for $20. And you got entered into a prize draw. So there was the grand prize was my middle collection, which is $4,500. And then a bunch of other things that I solicited from my email list and people who are in the exhibit. So there was other prizes. Like one of the girls who I photographed owns a gym, so she donated, like some kind of a training package. And my makeup artist donated some of her products like that kind of thing. And so we raised 1700 for that charity.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, and so you organize all that yourself on the back of the what 40 Over 40 program?

Laurie Brown: Yeah, so what it was, was an art exhibit. It was on display for a month. And then I held a gala to clothes exhibit. So each woman had a 16 x 20, metal print, hanging in a gorgeous space like this is a, it used to be a school, it's like a four level school that was built in 1912, I think so the hallways are really wide, there's a lot of like original detail. So it's just like, and then there's modern touches, too. So it's just a cool space to be. And so there's this hallway where all of the images are hanging. And then from their lead capture form, when they entered, they kind of shared a bit of their story. And I just printed that on a card and put it underneath each portrait. So when people were going to enjoy the images, they were learning a little bit about each person who was in the image and one of my neighbors, my neighbors right next door Barbara and Matt, they went twice to the show because it is just free to go you go. It's a public building. And it was funny because my neighbor Matt told me, he was like in tears, reading these stories. He was so moved. So I think that it's a community. And it's an uplifting kind of experience and a confidence boost for somebody who maybe has never liked a photo of themselves.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so I'm getting the bigger picture now, because I probably asked you the wrong questions. But I'm understanding now that the women that come to you they're responding to an ad or something they've seen from you. It's to actually appear in this exhibition, and to be in the exhibition and tell their story. They have to have the photos done by you. And then they fall in love with the photos and they buy more photos of themselves. And they get to share all those things about themselves.

Laurie Brown: Yeah, and then we've got a VIP Facebook group, too. So their stories get shared in there. And I'm still working on getting more engagement in there. There's a little bit that's based.

Andrew Hellmich: So tell me then Laurie is the primary way of attracting these women, is it via Facebook ads and Instagram ads?

Laurie Brown: Yeah, or referrals.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so just tell me then. So when you run an ad, what's the general gist of the ad? Is it looking for 40 women over 40?

Laurie Brown: Yeah, basically. So last year, I ran it. I think I said like wanted, and you wouldn't believe how well I did spend wise last year was insane. Because I ran it in September, probably just for a month that kind of a high daily spend, like high ish daily spend. But then I had so many leads, I turned it down to $1 a day, left it there for months. And I still got all the leads that I needed. So my total spend last year was under 500 for all of the leads.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so when you're doing the high daily spend, you're not talking $100 a day.

Laurie Brown: I think for the first couple of days it might have been and then I dropped it to 40 or 50 or something and then dropped it down to $1.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow. So you've literally only spent $500 in total for the whole campaign?

Laurie Brown: In total, in total. Yeah, it was kind of sick because I had so much traction on the initial ad. Like people were really engaging with it. And so I think that's why I kind of hit the lotto with the Facebook ads department. Because this year is a different story. I'm definitely spending a lot more. But there's so many things that are changed. You can't just put it down to one thing but it definitely is more expensive this year.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, but still I'm guessing it's still worth it.

Laurie Brown: It's still worth it. Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: And do you show your ads on Facebook and Instagram?

Laurie Brown: Yes.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay. And then are you running lead ads or are you sending people to a landing page?

Laurie Brown: I'm doing both.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. Anyone working, you know, way better than the other?

Laurie Brown: Yeah, I would say that if they go to the landing page, they're more likely to book a consult and show up to the consult. I have had a few who have booked from the lead ad that it's so much faster, like I think it gets auto filled. I think people almost don't even realize you've signed up for it sometimes. And then there's these awful people who are just trolls. And I think they enter an incorrect information or I don't know, I don't know what their point is. But my virtual assistant had a nasty return phone call from somebody who said, 'This isn't our Barbara's number. Don't f*cking call me.' I'm like, okay, so clearly this Barbara has a hate on for somebody. And she put his number in there, I don't know. But there's definitely some things like that to happen, or, you know, people who book a column and don't show up. I wish I could figure out how to stop that from happening. I'm doing everything I can. Right. So

Andrew Hellmich: Are you saying you get more of that with the lead ads where it's automatically filled?

Laurie Brown: With the lead ads.

Andrew Hellmich: Right.

Laurie Brown: Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: And is the idea of a lead ad for you to obviously get the information, but then to direct them to the landing page at some point. Yeah,

Laurie Brown: So that lead ad has the link on it as well. So some people will click on that instead. That was part of John's course, right? And I kind of already knew what I needed to do. So I took his course just for little things like that, like little tweaks that I could use to improve, right? So that was one thing that I wouldn't have thought of, if it was a lead, to also put the link down there. So that was a really good tip.

Andrew Hellmich: So even though that you're running a lead ad in conjunction with the ads that are taking people to the landing page, you still want to get everyone to the landing page at some point.

Laurie Brown: Yeah. And they're all getting subscribes to my email list. I mean, going through an email nurture sequence, so they'll get that leads again.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, but so no matter what the women or the people have to go to the landing page to actually book the call and give you some background information, like say why they want to participate.

Laurie Brown: They don't, they could still book a call without having filled out that information. And then I just know that I have to ask those questions when we're on the phone.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so is it you making those calls? Or is it your VA?

Laurie Brown: I make those calls, the calls I have her do are for the people who didn't book a call but they submitted a form.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay.

Laurie Brown: So she'll just call and say like, 'Hey, you've shown interest in this, like, I noticed you have booked a call yet. Would you like to schedule that now?'

Andrew Hellmich: Got it. Okay. And is she Canadian based or overseas?

Laurie Brown: She's Canadian, and I'm paying top dollar for it.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, that's partly why I asked. I wanted to see if there was another way around that. Okay.

Laurie Brown: If you find one, let me know. I'm paying way too much right now.

Andrew Hellmich: I mean, you're doing great, though. Look at that. Look at the turnover. It's amazing. Is the profit good, too?

Laurie Brown: Yeah. So one of the numbers I wrote down on the little spreadsheet is the number of sales or the percentage of sales that I have that are just digital only and it's almost 40%.

Andrew Hellmich: So you're comfortable with that? If someone takes Digital's only?

Laurie Brown: I'm priced that whatever they buy, I'm profitable.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. So if someone takes a digital only package, what are they still spending three and a half? $4,000?

Laurie Brown: Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Awesome. Okay, so do you get anyone balking at that? Or is it that they know that up front if they want digital's it's the same as printed products.

Laurie Brown: Yeah. So I cover all of that. And I do cover that in that initial call. I don't want to detail like I don't cover like every line item on my price list. But I do go into a bit more detail on that design consultation, where I have the visuals, and I'm like, okay, so you have options, I have my pricing setup. So this design that within each of those collections, they can get what they want, whether it's digital or product. And like, they might say like, it's purely digital, they can print those files. If they choose a product, then they're gonna get web ready fast. And that's a win win for some people, because they're like, I wasn't going to print them anyways. So then they feel like they're getting a free product.

Andrew Hellmich: Got it, okay. And so you're quite comfortable then if someone takes digital only because you've got low cost of goods?

Laurie Brown: Oh, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: I can see you smile, I can see you smile as you say it. So let me just take you back to you know, replacing the whole corporate income. I mean, you have a family, you've got a number of kids, a husband there. What's life like now with your own business compared to having a corporate job? Because I imagine to some extent with a corporate job, you can sort of leave work and then come home and focus on the family. Whereas when you have your own business It's like it's always on your mind. What's that life balance like now, work life balance?

Laurie Brown: Yeah, I guess the disadvantage of running your business is you're kind of always, always thinking about it and always working on it. But you know, there's no getting up at 6am. Or went up the car, driving down town needing to like, just be in an office, I'm able to take my kids to doctors and dentist appointments, while my kids were younger, I could walk them to school, or walk them to the baths, make their lunches, I'm here when they get home, it's just a matter of being more present. And so I'm really enjoying that like now, at this point, I could never go work for somebody else. I'm unemployable.

Andrew Hellmich: Like most of us are. And so tell me about like, I alluded to the fact that in the beginning, I felt like you were trying everything in anything. And you talked about, you know, photographing families in the park and things. Like, when did you feel like, okay, this is me, this is what I should be doing this that I'm going to focus on and do.

Laurie Brown: Once I realized that this kind of photography was a thing, because I didn't know it existed. Until there was that that first person actually, I think it was for the first person who paid me money. It was like $200, she was asking me like, oh, how should I stand? Like, what should I do with my hands and stuff? And I was like, 'Uhmmm, what?' So I first went and looked up. I was like, how do you pose people, and this was way, way back. This was before, there's so much education now. It's disgusting. I wish all this existed back then. But I did happen to find Sue Bryce, on Creative Live. And she changed my world because I'm like, Okay, this is cool. This is something I've never seen. And I love. Because it's a real service. And especially now that we're heading into unknown territory, with AI, all this change that is happening, there's still a lot of value in being able to make somebody feel comfortable and guide them and look at what their bodies doing and know how to tell them how to pose. And, you know, even though you can now submit a photo to AI and get like, you know, 100 versions of your headshot. It's, that's not You're not comparing apples to apples with that at all. So I think it's a real differentiating factor.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. So how long into your photography career did it take to say, Okay, this is it, like, when did you find Sue Bryce? When did you realize, okay, this is what I want to do. Was it five years in two years in?

Laurie Brown: That was a long time ago. I don't know. I think it was, it was at least 10 years ago.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay. So even since I've known you, you've always struck me as a photographer, person who is always like, you'll go to BNI meetings, you'll go to women's groups, you'll try an ad for this. You try everything. And it felt like, to me it looked like I always felt, 'I hope Laurie finds like what's going to work for her' because I don't want you to fail. I want you to keep going and he like he never stopped. He just kept going. And you did. Did you feel the same way that I felt about you watching you from the outside?

Laurie Brown: Oh, like I was trying everything? I didn't know that I thought I was trying everything. I was resisting a lot of things like when you mentioned BNI, no thank you. I did go to one BNI meeting.

Andrew Hellmich: You know, I felt like looking from the outside because we you know, you're part of a mastermind group. I just saw you as a photographer, I was worried that you were going to give up. Because it felt like you're trying things but nothing was like clicking nothing was sticking like you didn't find the secret to make it all work. But then all of a sudden, here you are 10 years later, killing it. Like do you feel like that too? Or did you feel like it was just step after step after step? And you got to where you were always going?

Laurie Brown: Yeah, I think that there was a turning point. And it would be when I found your podcast because that 30 days of gorgeous was the first successful campaign and idea that like, just had any traction whatsoever. And but what held me back at that time, was I was working out of my home, I still had young kids, as you know, I've got a kid who has high special needs. And I was like, you know, I don't, I was afraid to market too much because I was afraid of not being able to handle that much business. So the pandemic really helps me because it's what it's what gave me the fodder to convince my husband to give up his garage because what I'm in right now used to be our double attached garage. So that over there leads into my kitchen. And what I did was fit this place out with a private washroom it's got like a drink station and a separate entrance and stuff. Once I had that space, then I could mark it like crazy and not worry about it. This is a space that I can keep my kids out of. I can keep it clean. And, and I don't have to worry, you know, during the pandemic, I didn't have to worry about all of the COVID restrictions and stuff because I do have a separate entrance. People were not entering my home. So I would say that just feeling like I had a the time like that my family was needed me less as they grew up, and then the space in order to mark it to capacity.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, I'm gonna link to the videos that you have on your website and also on YouTube, because it shows your studio beautifully. Is that something you created yourself? Was that what you hired the videographer for?

Laurie Brown: Oh, that YouTube video, the one where I like the studio walkthrough. I really appreciate you saying that looks professional. But now it's just me. I keep wanting to redo it, because I like that can be so much better. I only hired the professional videographer. So she did some footage of my event. And then she did come here for a little bit of behind the scenes just to put in as part of that 40 over 40 video, but the one that's purely a studio tour was just me. And you know, whose idea that was? So shout out to Ian Sim.

Andrew Hellmich: So good. Ian's fantastic. So and just for the listener, then. So you're working out of a double garage, this is converted to a studio. So this is your office, your studio and your sales room. So you have a projector in there as well. You have all your samples on the wall, you have studio lighting there setup, you've got like you said the bathroom, you've got the super cool mirror with a with a rim light all the way around it, which I saw in your video, which I love. So you're doing everything from the signs of a double garage.

Laurie Brown: Yes.

Andrew Hellmich: Awesome. Awesome. So what was what was the was there resistance? It sounds like there was a little bit of resistance from your husband in the beginning to say, okay, he's gonna give up his garage. I know, I wouldn't want to give up my garage.

Laurie Brown: Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Is it because he couldn't see the income potential or he just wanted the space? So what was the resistance?

Laurie Brown: Yeah, no, yes, this was like his space. And he didn't want to give that up. So definitely promising him his own brand new garage, which we have now built and it is amazing. So he got his dream garage, he's fine. Um, that's another thing I'd like to talk about actually is, is husband support. So Dave definitely has in the past been that guy who all of us complain about who my husband just doesn't get it. You know, and it's tough when they're not supportive. But he is completely 180'd. And I think it was once he started to see me making real money. Now, fast forward to the last year, I would say he makes most of the meals, he does like all of the grocery shopping, like he is making up for it in terms of taking care of the kids, all those years, I did all of those things, taking care of the kids making all the meals and all that stuff. But he has. He's got a very demanding job, but it's, you know, a corporate job. And so when he comes home, he gladly throws on dinner. And because he knows that I'm making really good sales, it's worth his time. So just wanting to give people hope out there that if your husband is a bit of an a**hole, he can turn around.

Andrew Hellmich: So are you saying that, like he, he needed to see some of those numbers coming through to see okay, this is a serious business.

Laurie Brown: Yeah. Because I definitely got some like comments from him before I was like, you know, like, come on. This is just, that's not a real job. You know, those kinds of comments. And that hurts, right? So I think you just have to believe in yourself. And what I needed to do was to prove to him, so I'm like, I'm just going to show you, I will show you that I can make a lot of money doing this. And once I prove that, then he he's acknowledged and been like, Okay, keep going.

Andrew Hellmich: So good. So good. I mean, you threw Dave under the bus a little bit, but I think I think he's come out looking pretty good. Come out looking. Okay. Do you track stats on your from your website at all, Laurie?

Laurie Brown: Yeah. What do you mean? Like custom conversions?

Andrew Hellmich: No, not so much, a bit more general than that. So like on when I go to your homepage, the very first thing that pops up is download my free guide. And you've got an email opt in there. Do many women sign up for that?

Laurie Brown: Yes. Yeah. I could probably look that up.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so you've created the ultimate guide to finding the right clothes for your body type. So did you create that from scratch or did you find something online and then pick it together yourself?

Laurie Brown: No, I created that from scratch. I just looked at what I was recommending to people anyways and just put it in a PDF format.

Andrew Hellmich: I mean, if this is if you're getting a lot of signups for that. That is a beautiful email opt in that you've got there because that's one thing that so many photographers are searching for is a great a great opt in a great lead magnet. So that's awesome to hear that that's working. And then so once they sign up for that, they go into your email software and they get an automated follow ups.

Laurie Brown: Yes. So they'll look at a nurture sequence. So they just learn more about me, I try to have like, add a lot of value, and share stories and stuff like that. So that they'll hopefully stick around. Some people drop off but that's fine. It's just a good way to get them in any kind of lead magnet, I don't think as long as it's something that clicking on I've tried other things that haven't worked, which really sucks news, spending time putting it together. But because I did try to switch to one, and I've switched back to that, because it worked so much better than the new one that I was trying.

Andrew Hellmich: Oh good. So then that's the thing, once you've got something that works, you can test something else against it. This one's proved itself to be the one.

Laurie Brown: Because not everyone is really ready to buy, right?

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah.

Laurie Brown: Like you have to, you have to remember that like when somebody hears about you. And sort of like if you're if you're giving a presentation, a sales presentation, only, there's only a couple of people in the room who are ready to buy right now. You don't want to lose the rest of the people in the room. And so if they found you showed some interest, but they're not ready. So if you can get them on your email list stay top of mind, which is why send out a weekly email so that they can't forget about me, then they will come when they're ready. And for a lot of people, it's like three years. So it's a long game.

Andrew Hellmich: Well, you mentioned that and I alluded to the fact in the intro that you are diligent with your weekly emails, I get them. And you all you had before and afters, you have little anecdotal stories about yourself. You talk about the women you photograph, like how much work goes into those weekly emails from your side?

Laurie Brown: So I have assigned some of that to my VA, and she's just grabbing the links. So the way that I'm able to have regular content is just by doing a weekly round up, which is an idea I got from Julie Christie. Actually, I think she had shared that somebody else. Maybe Tim Ferriss or something does something like that. And I was like, Oh, that's a really good way. Because you know, it's it's hard to think of something to write each week. And so if I have nothing else to say, I can be like, here you go, here's your weekly roundup, and some people have expressed to me how much they liked that because some people, at least back in the day when news was shared on Facebook, they said that they found they don't want to be on Facebook, because there's too many depressing things on there. So she this one person who gave me the feedback said, I love your emails, because I can just click and see your content. And that's it.

Andrew Hellmich: That's nice. So your weekly roundup, is that a week in your life? Or is it all photography and studio based, like when you say a weekly...

Laurie Brown: Oh it's just a post that I made that week from on Facebook. So I posted a whole bunch of places, but I just grabbed the links that are on Facebook and put them in there. And so that is the majority of that email. And then I just write my personal message at the top. Or if I have some kind of promo happening, then that's the message that I add, but I get the VA to put in all the links kind of set everything up for me. And then I just go in, add and personalize it, and then send it.

Andrew Hellmich: I love that. I didn't know that. Okay, so this is repurposed social media content into an email.

Laurie Brown: Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: So good. And what email software are you using to send this out?

Laurie Brown: MailerLite.

Andrew Hellmich: MailerLite. Nice, awesome. And then just for sticking with your website, I know that you have a extensive before and after page is I'm guessing, but I don't know the last few about stats. Is that one of your most visited pages on the website?

Laurie Brown: Like when you repeat my marketing back to me? Because I do believe that because like I say that, and I believe that. Yeah, I do. Do I actually know? No, I don't know. But that's what I say every time I share before and after. I'm like this is the most visited page on my website? So I think it is but

Andrew Hellmich: You don't know?

Laurie Brown: Actually no, I can probably find out.

Andrew Hellmich: Now, you have to. You have to go and check that out and let me know so I can update the listener? Because I mean, I'm guessing it would have to be like that's the page that has that, like the most intrigue.

Laurie Brown: Well, yeah, drive traffic there. So that's why I'm saying like you're speaking my marketing back to me because I share those before and afters regularly. And I say that and then there's a link to that before and after page because if you actually go to my website, the before and after page is somewhat buried, so you might have a hard time finding it otherwise. So I decided to make it part of my social media like regular content so that people would check it out because I know that's what people want to see is transformations. You can't share those as part of Facebook advertising. They don't like before and afters. So it's a great way for me to show my before and afters without getting in trouble.

Andrew Hellmich: Right? So hang on when you say got in trouble, so it's not because you've shown too much skin but Facebook literally doesn't like the before and after shot.

Laurie Brown: No, that's like a Big No, no, I thought it was Facebook ads. You can't show before and afters

Andrew Hellmich: Ahhh, like a transformation as if you're selling a product. Is that why?

Laurie Brown: Yeah, it's sort of like is one of those things that makes people feel bad about themselves or something like that, or it's like promising something. So whether it's like plastic surgeons can't show before and afters and stuff. So I have to find other ways to advertise without showing before and afters. I just know because of reading through the Facebook ... what is that?

Andrew Hellmich: Terms and conditions?

Laurie Brown: Terms and conditions. Like, it's just you... I've never been caught up in it. Because I've never done that, and in fact there's a reason why because from what I was reading is that I would get in trouble if I try to use before and afters in my like advertising,

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so you could show a finished photo of one of your clients, and then have a link to your before and after pages. You can't show the before and after in the ad.

Laurie Brown: I've never tried doing a link to the before and after page either, because I would always send them to a landing page if I'm doing paid advertising. So the only time I send them to my before and after page is just in my regular social media posts.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, got it. Got it. Got it. Cool. So are you always directing like your email readers back to your website? Is that the number one aim to get them back to your website? Or are you trying to get them to your schedule a call page? Like what are you trying to do with those emails?

Laurie Brown: So the nurture sequence of emails is trying to get them to book a consult with me. And then the weekly emails, it could just be driving them to my website, or to the Facebook page. And it just depends if I have some kind of promotion happening or not. But if I had nothing else going on, it would just be sending them to my Facebook page, really, because that's where all of the links are going.

Andrew Hellmich: To your Facebook page?

Laurie Brown: Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. Okay. So you're happy because you're diligently posting there regularly?

Laurie Brown: Yeah. And I do the same to LinkedIn, and Instagram as well. But I just figured that most people, for sure would have Facebook, I think out of those three. So I, you know, I just decided to go into Facebook links.

Andrew Hellmich: Got it, got it. Okay. And then if they're on Facebook and going to your Facebook page, this thing or updates, and they got links in those posts as well, taking them to different pages before and after, etc.

Laurie Brown: Yeah, it's just about getting them to learn more about me and my process and like build that desire, right, because the more they see of my work, and the more they can relate to themselves, especially seeing the before and afters and you can see. And I always tell people this I do the before and afters not to make you look bad, like and I tried to light people nicely and stuff. But it's more to inspire people who if they only saw the finished images, they might think that oh, I don't see myself in that prude like that's model. You know, obviously, that person is a model. And I could never do a photo shoot like this. But when they see the before and after they see that I was just like a regular person who looks just like me. But then in this after photo, you can see the magic of the not just hair and makeup, but the lighting and posing and feeling comfortable in front of the camera and what that does for a person.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, that makes total sense. I love that. I've got a few quick questions I was gonna fire you before we finish up. Laurie, you've talked to and I had to bet your campaigns? Do you set up a yearly calendar of campaigns that you're going to be running? Or do you just play it by ear, see how you go?

Laurie Brown: I always have so much things. So I'm planning I don't necessarily execute but yeah, for this coming year I'm working on more of a marketing plan. I don't need to have that much going on. Because like I said, I don't need that many clients. And so I do want to continue doing 40 over 40 Because I feel like that really is my jam. I love it. And just getting regular photoshoots aside from that, where people find me on Google, they need headshots, or they're referred or something like that for any other kind of shoot that I can get enough people. So I think aside from running 40 over 40 doing maybe one or two giveaways is really all I need to do.

Andrew Hellmich: So good. Are you part of a mastermind group?

Laurie Brown: Not really a mastermind. I am part of like a little accountability group that I've been a part of just for since September, I went to the urgent masters again this year. And I have there some friends who I stayed with who I made those friends on a trip to Italy. And so there's a few extra people in there as well. We've formed an accountability group that meets on Mondays but other than that, not really.

Andrew Hellmich: How many people in the group, roughly?

Laurie Brown: Maybe five or six.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, and then you say what you're going to do one week and then you stay accountable to the group for the following week.

Laurie Brown: Yeah, that's the idea is like keep it really simple. We keep it to like an hour. You just say Uh, this is what I intend to do this week. So call me on it next week. And if we have anything we're working through, then we can kind of be like, Oh, hey, guys, what do you think about this? And get some feedback.

Laurie Brown: Okay. It's similar to a mastermind group.

Laurie Brown: Yeah. Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: That's good. I want to ask you one last question about the little black dress that you have in your studio. Before that, where is the best place for the listener to go and see more of what we've been talking about your website, your socials? Where should we go?

Laurie Brown: So you can find me on Instagram, Facebook and LinkedIn, it's usually at lauriemacbrown. And I'm also I have a little account on Tiktok, where I do some stuff. I'm not super consistent on that one yet, because I find that creating those videos is terribly time consuming. Or you can go to my website, https://www.lauriemacbrownphotography.com/.

Andrew Hellmich: Fantastic. I'll add links to all those in the show notes that will accompany the audio so that the listener can find that. The little black dress so I saw that in your studio tour, video. You talked about it there. It's on the photo right beside you that you know where you're recording. You talked about it a couple of times as well. It's on your website. So it's an amazing little dress. But do the women come in and say, Oh, I've seen that everywhere? I don't want to be in that dress? Like is that a problem?

Laurie Brown: Oh, no, no, it's not a dress, it's just a skirt. And it becomes a new dress every time somebody else puts it on, because they pair it with their own top or a bodysuit or something. And so I've had people say like, Oh, what is your client that that beautiful dress, and I'm like, That's right here. Just bring your own top, you can have your own dress, too. So it's, it never really looks the same. And there's so many ways to use it. Yeah, I think I made that handmade made that I don't know, eight years ago or something.

Andrew Hellmich: And it gets used in every shoot.

Laurie Brown: I use it all the time.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow.

Laurie Brown: All the time. It's not get old, it's needed a few repairs, I just had to resew it a couple times. But I'm adding so I make other. So there's things that I buy like that tulle rope back there I bought. But I try to make other things if I can. So I made this other kind of like white outfit. And then like I said, I my husband built some things. So you can't really see like you just the side of it. But it's like a shower. It's like a split setup to look like shower glass. And then he made me a big white cube. So there's just little things that you kind of exclusive to the studio, which I'm sure people could copy. But I think that those add to the experience, especially if somebody isn't sure that they really have enough for their photoshoot that I'm like, Oh, don't worry. You don't need to go shopping. Like, I've got some things here, you probably have everything you need. And if we added a few of these pieces, then it'll really round out the look that you want it from your photo shoot.

Andrew Hellmich: Got it. Good. So the reason I did ask, and I'm so glad that was the answer is I get the feeling that as a photographer, we're always looking for something new, we want to add something, instead of just doing the same thing that works and repeating and repeating and repeating it. And once you've proven you can do you know with that little black skirt, you can use that for every single shoot and you have for the last eight years. You don't need to keep adding stuff all the time. Just stick to what works.

Laurie Brown: That's like literally I had, well maybe I had one other king tulle skirt, but I mean, it's like pretty much all I had, until very recently, like once I had a studio that I'm like, Okay, I have some space to put things. But before that that's like the one and only piece that I was using consistently. And you don't need much. I would really caution people against wasting too much money on buying things for their client wardrobe. It can be fun, for sure. But you know, there's some people who want to only wear their own clothes. So if you are going to spend if you're starting out and you're going to be spending money, I mean, invest in education, don't invest in shopping online, because you don't need to dress your clients. You can wait until you have a little bit more income and then start investing in a few pieces if you have a space in your studio.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, that's a good idea. Laurie it's been so good to catch up. Again. Like I said, I see your emails every week. I'm always sort of following along in the background. And I love how successful you are, how successful you've been how hard you work at it and like you really are an inspiration. So thank you so much for coming back and sharing what you have.

Laurie Brown: So super fun to talk to you again.