Intro

On the podcast I talk with John about the fascinating 40-year history of Apple’s developer relations, how almost going bankrupt in the 1990s shaped today’s control-focused approach, and why we might need an ‘App Store 3.0’ reset.

Top Takeaways:

🕹️ The 1980s: Apple’s developer DNA was born
 Apple’s earliest wins came from nurturing third-party developers, even spinning off its own apps to avoid competing with outsiders.

💸 Microsoft saved Apple (literally)
 Apple’s near-bankruptcy in the ’90s made them both humble and wary—forever shaping how they deal with developers and competition.

🍎 From “please build for us” to “we choose you”
 WWDC 2008 saw Apple begging for apps and evangelist emails on slides; today, it’s the other way around.

🖥️ The “Delicious Era” fueled iPhone success
 Mac indie devs (Panic, Delicious Monster, Bare Bones) built a design-obsessed, passionate community—setting the stage for the iPhone App Store boom.

🚪 App Store 1.0: A new world for indies
 For the first time, solo developers could launch businesses from home. No server costs, no payments hassle—just build, submit, and sell.

🏦 Apple’s rules got stricter as the App Store grew
 As the App Store became a services giant, the partnership vibe faded. Developers went from partners to “users” of Apple’s marketplace.

📉 App Store math now feels upside down
 Today, indie devs can pay Apple millions, while giants like Meta pay almost nothing. The fee logic and incentives don’t fit 2025.

⏳ The platform needs an “App Store 3.0” reset
 John and David call for a new era: lower fees, clearer rules, and Apple acting as a true platform partner—not just a toll booth.

🔄 Developer enthusiasm is Apple’s long-term moat
 Apple risks becoming a “legacy only” giant if it loses developer goodwill. The most important apps are still built by outsiders.

👥 A generational handoff is coming
 With Apple’s senior leadership nearing retirement, now is the time to set new priorities: empower developers, invest in the ecosystem, and ensure Apple’s platforms stay vibrant for decades to come.

About John Gruber:

🚀 Author of the Daring Fireball blog, host of The Talk Show, and co-creator of Markdown.

🍎 John is a lifelong Apple fan and is passionate about discussing all things iPhone, App Store, and developer relations.

💡 “I feel like Apple is dwelling on the success and the innovation that completely revolutionized the phone industry […] for too long and that they should move on and build something else new.”

👋  Daring Fireball 

Resources: 

• Bill Gates in 1984 promoting Apple Macintosh 
• Bill Gates on stage with Steve Jobs in 1983
• The Macintosh Way — Guy Kawasaki
• Cocoa Programming for Mac OS X — Aaron Hillegass
• Daring Fireball

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights: 

[0:00] Apple Kremlinology: Why understanding Apple requires a special kind of obsession - and a long memory.

[4:58] Fanboys unite: David shares how his love of Apple led him from audio engineer to App Store developer.

[8:48] Turning point: John’s link to David’s iPhone mileage app in 2008 helped jumpstart his indie career.

[13:37] Joz, Phil, and Eddy: The developer relations and most of the App Store are overseen by three Apple execs who joined in the ‘80s.

[17:01] The crossroads: How Apple’s early decision to unbundle first-party apps in the ‘80s encouraged third-party innovation.

[21:25] Hands off: Why Apple’s decade-long retreat from building software paved the way for a thriving developer ecosystem.

[27:07] Vision parallels: John compares Vision Pro’s slow start to the original Mac - and explains why it doesn’t have to be perfect (yet).

[30:32] Betting on the future: How Apple playing the long-game is their biggest advantage in launching and sustaining new platforms.

[33:55] What comes after the Mac: The ‘90s were filled with failed next-gen Apple platforms - and it almost killed the company.

[36:47] Burned by success: Apple’s trauma from near-bankruptcy shaped their need to control developer relationships.

[41:13] The App Store revolution: Why the 2008 launch of the App Store wasn’t just a business move, it was a turning point for software itself.

[45:07] Developer momentum: How passionate indie devs and Mac software of the 2000s primed the iPhone for success.

[53:46] iPhone jailbreakers: Why the jailbreak community may have pushed Apple to launch the SDK sooner than expected.

[57:39] App Store 2.0: In 2016, Apple dropped some commission rates, opened up subscriptions, and kicked off a new era.

[1:03:03] Time for 3.0: Why David believes the App Store needs another reset - and a shift in mindset.

[1:08:26] Humility and hardware: Steve Jobs’ 1997 apology to a developer at WWDC still echoes - and it’s exactly what developers need to hear in 2025.

[1:13:30] Holding on too tight: How Apple’s fear of losing control is costing them developer goodwill.

[1:26:35] A legacy worth protecting: The iPhone isn’t going anywhere - but without change, Apple could become a legacy business as other platforms take over.

[1:32:06] Red flags on Vision Pro: Why developers aren’t building for Apple’s newest platform - and why that should worry Apple.

[1:39:18] The indie paradox: How small developers pay millions to Apple, while giants like Meta pay almost nothing.
[1:41:39] Fluke of history: Schiller once floated capping App Store revenue at $1B. What if Jobs had said yes?
[1:44:35] The trust gap: Could a more generous App Store policy bring Netflix and others back?

[1:47:08] It’s not too late: Why Apple should proactively change the App Store instead of waiting on regulation.

[1:57:26] Developer vibes: A simpler App Store (with clearer rules and lower fees) could renew trust and drive innovation.

[2:00:29] Bigger than profit: Making great soft...