This is the sixteenth year we've been podcasting design matters, and i like to thank you for listening. I am debby millman, and i look forward to talking with you again sue. Debby's new book, why design matters, con sations with the world's most creative people, is coming out in february of 20 22. Design matters is produced for the ted audio collective by curtis fox productions. Interviews are usually recorded at the school of visual arts masters in branding program in new york city.