Defining Success and Resilience in Creativity

How can you ‘cast a wider net' and reach more readers with your books? How can you embrace the best of publishing options for your work? JD Barker explains how his publishing business works.

In the intro, How Authors Measure Success [Self-Publishing Advice]; Creating through Grief [Go Creative]; Death Valley; Successful Self-Publishing, Fourth Edition; Gothic Cathedrals; AI-Assisted Artisan Author webinar.

Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with writing software, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 15% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn 

J.D. Barker is the New York Times and international bestselling author of thrillers and horror. He co-writes with James Patterson, as well as other authors. He's also the co-host of the Writer’s, Ink Podcast.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. 

Show Notes

• Weighing up what is worth licensing, and what is worth doing as an indie author
• The importance of making connections in the publishing industry
• Why traditionally published authors are more open towards the indie framework
• Co-writing with James Patterson and others
• Writing across different genres and mediums to “cast a wider net”
• Tips for effectively pitching podcasts
• Benefits for an advanced author coming to Author Nation

You can find J.D. at JDBarker.com.

Transcript of Interview with J.D. Barker

Joanna: JD Barker is the New York Times and international bestselling author of thrillers and horror. He co-writes with James Patterson, as well as other authors. He's also the co-host of the Writer’s Ink Podcast. So welcome back to the show, JD.

JD: Hey, Joanna. It's great to be back. I was looking at the timeline, so like this was pre-COVID, I think, the last time we talked.

Joanna: Yes, I know. It's crazy. I also had look. It was 2020, which does seem like another life. So back then, we did talk about your background, so we're just going to jump straight into it today.

So the last five years, JD, how has it been like? Give us an overview. Well, not of the last five years, but—

What does your business look like now?

I almost feel like five years ago you were almost relatively new on the indie author scene as such, but now you've really cemented your position.

JD: I was. So let me think, like five years ago, so that was about the same time that I called my agent and said, “I don't want you selling my English rights anymore. I'm going to do it myself.”

Joanna: Yes, basically.

JD: The publishing professionals, I think they hate me, because I tend to pull the rug out from under them quite a bit. Honestly —

I indie published my first novel, and I got a taste of what that was like.

For better or worse, that was a deal breaker for me.

It's something that's always been in the back of my head, and I weigh it against every contract. At one point, I had a book coming out called A Caller's Game, and I called my agent, and like I just decided I'm going to indie publish it in English, and I'd let her go ahead and sell all the foreign territories like she usually does.

I wanted to see how that would play out. Honestly, I liked it a lot because it gave me the freedom and control that I had as an indie to get that title out there. I got the economics benefits of being an indie.

So I did that for a couple of different books, but I still ran into one particular problem. You know me well enough, I completely gloss over all the good stuff, and I just focus on the one or two things that aren't working right and that's where I tend to try and come up with some kind of solution.

I couldn't get into the big box stores. I was still having trouble getting into airports. I couldn't get into Target or Costco or Walmart.

So that's something that weighed on me for a couple of years.

I guess about a year and a half ago, I sent my agent a copy of Behind a Closed Door, which was my latest thriller. We sold foreign rights on that almost immediately, and the book was going to auction with the traditional publishers—or not foreign rights, film rights.

I got a phone call from a friend of mine that worked at Harper Collins, and she said, “We're about to offer on this book, and when that comes in, you need to turn it down.”

I got a similar phone call from somebody over at Random House, and I asked why, and she said, “Well, the editor who wants your book is about to get laid off or about to cut a lot of people.” Then a week or two later, all those industry cuts that we all saw happened.

I don't know if you've ever been in a position where you've had a book at a traditional publisher where you lost your editor, but like that book can sit there in limbo forever, depending on your contract. Without somebody to champion it, it may not come out at all. So that really scared me.

So I kind of reached back to my corporate days. My last real job I had, I worked in finance, and I got a hold of some of the people that were involved in the purchase of Simon and Schuster at the private equity firm. I started some conversations, and ultimately —

I created my own imprint at Simon and Schuster, which is what I'm doing today.

So I, basically, get the freedom of being an indie author. I can put out what I want, when I want, but I've got Simon and Schuster as my backbone. So they handle my print sales and distribution. So that's what I'm doing today.

Joanna: So you still upload the ebook yourself to KDP, but then you give the print to Simon and Schuster? Or does everything go through them?

JD: No. So the way I signed the contract, I've got my own LLC—well, it's an S Corp, I guess, at this point—but it's called Barker Creative. So the contract is actually between Simon and Schuster and Barker Creative.

So what that means is, when I have a book, I can pick and choose whether JD Barker is publishing it or Barker Creative is publishing it. If it's a Barker Creative book, it has to go to Simon and Schuster. If it's a JD Barker book, I can put it out on my own.

So legally, I basically created the wiggle room that I needed. So I can take that book and I can say, “I'm going to put out ebook on my own. I'm going to do audiobook through somebody else.” I can farm out those pieces. So that's kind of what I've been doing.

So I signed a contract with Recorded Books. They handle all of my audiobooks.

I just keep ebooks for myself because really there's no point in handing that off to anybody. It's so easy to do. Then I've been doing print through Simon and Schuster.

Joanna: So how do you make the decision?

You said your biggest problem there was the big box stores, airports, which is why you wanted to do a kind of print deal press. How do you make a decision as to what you then keep as a JD Barker book versus a Barker Creative book?

For people listening, where is the line? Because a lot of people, let's face it, won't get the contract offers you do, but they do get offers. So I know people who get offers, maybe for a couple of thousand advance. Some are no advance, but royalties, plus maybe some marketing.

A lot of authors listening do get the chance for some kind of deal. Also, audio deals are coming up a lot.

How do people weigh up what is worth signing and licensing and what is worth doing indie?

JD: I basically look at the book when it's finished, and I decide, what is going to cast the widest net?

What is going to cause this to get out in front of the largest group of people and possibly bring in more people into my reading audience? That's kind of my goal at this point.

A couple years ago, I was told that my audience was women 45 and over. So I wrote a young adult book, and started roping them in a little bit younger, and I continue to do that. One of the books I've got coming out—do you remember a movie from the 90s called Flatliners?

Joanna: Yes, you told me about this, but tell everyone else.

JD: Flatliners is one of my all-time favorite movies. It came out in 1990, and it's got this crazy cast. It had Kiefer Sutherland, Julia Roberts, Kevin Bacon, Billy Baldwin, and Oliver Platt, and all of them kind of at the start of their career. So people knew their names, but well before they became the household names that they are today.

It's about a group of medical students who kill each other one at a time, and then bring each other back to try and discover if there's any type of afterlife. I love that movie. I honestly still think it holds up today, and it's been a favorite of mine.

A few years ago, the guy who wrote it, his name is Peter Filardi, he got attached to one of my other projects. I wrote a prequel to Dracula for Bram Stoker's family, so he got attached as the screenwriter on that with Paramount.

We got to talking about Flatliners, and I told him, “Listen, I've got an idea to reboot this franchise.”

At the time, he didn't have control of the rights. The studio still had those. So I just kind of planted the seed. A couple of years went by, and then I got a phone call back from him, I guess about a year and a half ago.

He said, “Listen, I just got the rights back if you still want to do something.”

So ultimately, we ended up writing a novel—which I'm literally finishing the final edits on today—to reboot this franchise. So it's going to come out as a book first, with film later. So we have this project basically done.

So going back to your original question, how do I decide who is going to get what particular book?

I could take this book, I could indie publish it, I could put it out on Simon and Schuster if I want to do that.

With a book that's got a high profile like this, I know the best possible place for this to go is one of the other traditional publishers, somebody who's willing to put a lot of marketing dollars behind it.

So somebody is going to do something that I can't do on my own.

So we're going to let this book go out to auction. The film rights look like they're going to happen again very quickly. So my agent's going to hold up the book, we're going to see who bids the highest on it, and it's going to go that route. Again, this is mainly so I can get it in places that I can't on my own.

Joanna: I love that story, and I think that would be very cool. I'm very interested in in seeing that again. I remember that from the 90s.

The bigger thing here, when I was listening to you there, so there was this dude, and you met him years ago, and you connected. Then there was Bram Stoker's family that you connected with, and this guy in finance.

I remember from when you talked about your history, you were in the music industry and used to drive really famous people around. This is one of the things about you, it seems you have absolutely no fear in talking to anyone, however famous.

A lot of your bigger deals come from your connections. Is that part of your personality, or is that just something you fostered over time?

I guess, for people listening, how can we be more like that?

JD: Well, it's tricky, because as writers, we're all introverted. I'm autistic, which kind of adds another whole level to this mess. I hate talking to other people, just like most authors do. I go to a conference, I want to sit in the corner and hide.

It's gotten to the point that if I go, I usually don't take my wife with me, because I would just hang out and talk to my wife the whole time. So I try to force myself out of that comfort zone.

At the same time, like, I've got a degree in business. I've spent a lot of time working in marketing.

Everything in this world, it doesn't matter if you're selling books or you're selling glasses or you're selling cars, it's all about who you know and cultivating those contacts.

So every time I meet somebody, their name, what they do, who they are, all that goes into my mental Rolodex, and at some point I may call back on it. You never know when these kind of things are going to play out.

When I talk about this in front of writers groups—like, one year I was at ThrillerFest and I was in the elevator with Lee Child. So I got Lee Child standing five feet away from me. I've got 15 seconds.

I can either talk to him and possibly start up a conversation, maybe get a blurb from one of my books, or I can stand there and stare at the numbers like everybody else does. In my head, I'm thinking, well, what harm can come from making that ask?

I will always ask the question. I am a lot more afraid of the outcome of not asking the question than I am of hearing no.

So I will always ask.

Joanna: Yes, but it's something I struggle with, and I know a lot of listeners struggle with as well, is that moment. So as you say, if you've only got a few minutes, can you push yourself past the uncomfort zone, as such, to at least try?

Do you think being autistic gives you more, I don't know, ability to take what others might feel as embarrassment or shame—I mean—

Is that something that you would ever feel? Like I would feel embarrassed, and then if he snubbed me, I would feel ashamed.

JD: I think that's a big part of it. I don't feel a lot of those emotions the same way a, quote, unquote, “normal person” would. I'm just not afraid of it.

At the same time, somebody like Lee, Stephen King, all these different guys, like they've all stood in that same position that we are at the beginning of our career.

Everybody started somewhere. They've all been there fairly recently, and they still have memories of that. So I think when you do ask that question, as long as you can come up with a unique way to do it, I can stand out a little bit, I don't think there's any harm in doing it.

I've got plenty of people that come up to me and ask similar questions now, and I pull from that same knowledge base. I was doing this a couple of years ago, they're doing it to me now. I think in a lot of ways this, this entire author profession, we pay it forward as much as we can, and everybody does.

Joanna: Yes, and a lot of them are just—well, most people are nice, in general. I think that would be my thing.

Certainly going to ThrillerFest when I first went in like 2012, I was just starstruck by these authors who I'd been reading for years. I remember meeting Doug Preston and like Clive Cussler, and I was just a wreck.

Okay, well, here's the other thing, the indie thing. Back then in 2012, it was very early in the indie world, so I felt definitely kind of second class. Have you ever felt that? Or do you think things have changed? You network with lots of traditionally published people.

Do you think “the stigma” that some traditionally published authors used to tar us with, is that gone? Or do you come up against that anytime?

JD: I don't know if it's gone.

So when I published Forsaken, my first book, it was 2014. So we were still very much in the thick of it. Because I had worked in the publishing industry for so long, I worked as a book doctor and a ghost writer for 20-some years, I knew a lot of people in the industry.

When I wasn't able to get an agent on Forsaken, I seriously considered indie publishing. I started talking to a lot of authors that I knew that were regularly on The New York Times list, and I would run it by them, you know, the whole indie versus traditional thing.

Every single one of them pushed back and said, “You don't want to go indie. If you do that, you're going to be stuck in that world forever. You're never going to get a traditional deal.” Like they completely tried to talk me out of it. I'm honestly glad that it didn't happen, that that didn't work.

Now you fast forward a little bit, like, I was just on the board for ITW, so I was working with all those names that you just mentioned, and many other ones. I can't tell you how many phone calls I've gotten over the last four or five years from big name authors who got their rights back on this title or that title, something in their back catalog.

They're like, “I really think I should try to indie publish this, but I'm not sure how to do it. Can you help me?” You know, like they are all looking at that.

What ends up happening is that title comes back, their agent gets it, their agent resells it again, typically for a lesser amount than they got the previous time. So it's a dwindling asset. Then it gets locked up for another five to seven years or so, and then they rinse and repeat.

They're seeing that they're just not making the kind of money that they used to. Every one of those deals is getting smaller. Some cases, those books aren't reselling at all. So they're ending up with all this back catalog.

Other authors, they haven't resold their back catalog at all. So books went out of print 15, 20 years ago, and they are sitting on those Word documents on their computer, not sure what to do with them. Today, 2025, they are all looking at indie publishing in one way or another.

Joanna: Well, especially if some of the publishers, like you said, Simon and Schuster, and there's quite a few people who were getting these print-only deals and having their own imprints.

It's interesting, the last time I was at ThrillerFest—I think it was 2017 the last time I was there—and I remember then people were also asking me about this. One guy said, “I used to get advances that were seven figures, and now the advances are maybe six figures,” and these are big name people.

So that almost feels to me why they're interested. The only reason is because all the money is—you know—

The long tail is where we live now.

JD: Yes, they all see it, and they all feel it.

Regardless of the number of zeros in the dollar amount, it's all relative. They see that that industry is drying up. What kills me is, like, I don't see a lot of the traditional publishers making any changes.

The last book that I had traditionally published, they sent me the marketing plan. It had a substantial advance to it, so there was a marketing team behind it. The PDF document they sent me was literally the same marketing plan I saw from the same company five years earlier for a different book.

They just swapped out the cover images and a couple keywords here or there, but everything else was the same. It was this 30,000-foot view that really told me nothing as far as what they were doing.

If you step into a bookstore and look at the best-selling names that are there, the names that are out in front, on the end caps and the very first table and stuff like that, all these people are getting older.

The biggest name authors out there are all in their 70s, at this point. They're aging out.

The big publishers haven't come up with a way to replenish that stock.

In the old days—and when I say old days, you know, 15 years ago—they would spend a lot of money cultivating a new author. They would find somebody who had a solid voice that knew how to write, and they would sign them to a five or six book deal.

As long as each book sold better than the previous one, they would continue to re-up that, and they would keep it going, knowing that they could turn that person into one of those big name authors one day.

In today's world, that's not happening anymore. They're signing people for one-book deals, two-book deals, and if they don't see the kind of numbers that they need to see at the end of that contract, they let you go.

Then you end up leaving one of the top five, and you go with a smaller press, or you indie publish or whatever. A lot of people don't know how to recover from that, and a lot of them are just dropping out of the industry altogether.

Joanna: Yes, funny you should say that. I saw a blog post from an author—again, you know, not mentioning any names—but it basically said, “I've seen the income go down, and I've just decided it's not worth it anymore.” This was another reasonably big name.

I was like, wow. It's very interesting if that's the way it goes. I almost feel like for a lot of indies, like myself, for example, I've never had a truly breakout book. I've just built up.

When you build up from a low number per month to a bigger number per month, you feel, I don't know, perhaps fine, compared to somebody who might have started on a massive deal for book one and then has just spiraled downwards. You know what I mean?

That feels like the difference in energy between the indies who are clawing themselves up and then the big name trad authors who are now spiraling down.

JD: I think it's almost like a tortoise and hare thing.

If you come out of the gate and you have this enormous, big seller, you're going to be chasing that forever. Every book you write is going to be compared to that.

I would honestly rather be in your shoes, like a situation like you just said. Gently increase your revenue and your business model, everything just kind of raised just a little bit year after year after year. I think that's better because then it's a gradual thing.

As long as each book that you're putting out is selling better than the last one, you know, everything is constantly improving in a nice and slow and steady way. It's almost like the stock market. You're building a nice, solid base beneath you. If something goes wrong, it's not going to just fall out.

If you take somebody who has a big seller, all of a sudden they have these giant numbers that they have to try and hit every single time. Even if they have another big seller, if it doesn't hit those original numbers, it's seen as a failure. That's a tough position to be in.

I hate picking on people, but like, look at like Gillian Flynn. She had a three book deal. So her first two books did okay, but they didn't really sell that great. Then all of a sudden, Gone Girl hits. Imagine having to follow up Gone Girl. She has been at home writing the follow up to Gone Girl for years, and she hasn't put anything out.

Joanna: She wrote the screenplay. She moved into screenwriting.

JD: Yes, she she's moved onto other things. It's fantastic that she's actually got her hands in multiple pots. I think that's key, too. You talk about diversification all the time. That's something from this industry, and I think life, in general, I think a lot of people should take that away.

Joanna: I do want to just point out there, you said about the stock market and up into the right slowly. I mean, you have to zoom out. I think that would be what I would say. Nobody has that every book sells better than the last.

I mean, there's always books that come out that are just creative, and are not necessarily ones that hit the market. So if you zoom out, I think that's the point with the stock market, too. As an investor—

If you zoom out far enough over time, it does go up and to the right.

JD: It does. Yes, you've got to look at the big picture, and as long as it's improving, you're in good shape.

Joanna: Exactly. So I want to come back, you mentioned there the big names, all in their 70s. Of course, one of the biggest names in the world, James Patterson. You co-write with James Patterson. Then since you've been doing that, you've also moved into his model of co-writing with other people.

You're the second name under James Patterson, but you're the first name when you're co-writing with others. So tell us about that. Why did you decide to do it? Because, frankly, I have heard from some authors who've done this that they didn't end up getting the sort of sales that they thought they would get.

What has been your experience co-writing with James Patterson?

JD: Yes, so working with Patterson has been huge. I tell people it's almost like taking his Masterclass online, except he calls you and tells you everything you're doing wrong and gives you some advice.

We've had just as many phone calls on the business side of publishing as we have on writing side. He's been helping me kind of create the Patterson 2.0 with my own career.

I think I'm a lot of ways it's because he's older. He would probably do these things himself if he was in his 50s, but I think he's in a comfortable place right now. He doesn't see any reason to rock the boat, but he's getting some enjoyment out of helping me create a business model in today's world based on what he's learned.

From my standpoint, there's no way I'm going to turn down that advice. So he was largely responsible for me moving to Simon and Schuster the way that I did, the way the co-author titles are coming out, the people that I'm choosing, the countries that these books are dropping in.

He's been involved in a lot of those decisions, at least as an ear, a sounding board that I can run some of these things by. I hear you, like I know other people that have tried to do this before, and I've seen it not work, I've seen it work. In my model, it seems to be working okay.

People are buying my solo titles in a lot bigger numbers than they do the co-authored stuff. That being said, I'm pricing the co-authored stuff at a lower price point and getting it into places that my bigger titles may or may not get to.

I'm using it just like I do everything else. I'm using it to cast a wider net. I'm trying to rope in people that may not be able to afford a $10 ebook, because now they can buy a Barker book for $5.

Joanna: I like the idea of casting a wider net.

I think this is also something you do, you have deliberately not written the same thing over and over again. I mean, you do have a series, but it's not a massive series. Like, it's not a 25 book series, like some people. Well, like James Patterson has huge, long series.

How are you writing different kinds of books in order to cast a wider net?

JD: Yes, I made a conscious decision at the get-go that I didn't want to write the same book but different over and over again. Being in the publishing industry, I had seen people get caught up in that.

Before you know it, they're 10 books in and they're dreading the writing process because they just don't want to have to do that same thing again. So I came out of the gate, my very first novel was horror, the next one was a thriller, then I did another horror novel. So I bounced back and forth on purpose.

This frustrated the hell out of my agents and the publishers because they weren't quite sure how to market all that. What I've been finding is it's allowing me to build brand, like people are basically seeing my name as the brand and knowing that they're going to get a particular type of book.

Not necessarily the same book, but they're going to get the same feeling, the same kind of pacing and those types of things. So when I go look for co-authors, I'm trying to find people that can add a little something to my mix that I may not be able to do on my own.

I'll give you an example. I had a book out about a year ago now, called Heavy Are the Stones, that I wrote with Christine Daigle. I think you know Christine. In real life, she's a neuropsychologist.

So I can fake my way through that in a book. I can do enough Google searches and watch documentaries, just like any other author. I can come up with something that seems realistic and plausible, but having a real neuropsychologist in the writing room is priceless. It allows us to take that to a whole other level.

So when I seek out co-authors, I'm really looking for that.

I'm trying to find people that can bring something to the table that I can't necessarily do on my own.

At the same time, I take that book and I make sure the pacing matches my pacing, and make sure the language and everything is on par, the story is as compelling as any of my other titles.

So I kind of take something that they're working on and take it to another level. I dial it up a little bit so my audience will react to it. I think by combining all those different things, it seems to be working.

Joanna: Well, I can hear people in the audience who are like, “Oh, well, maybe I could pitch JD.”

Do you take pitches? And who are you looking for?

JD: I do all the time. Where it honestly came from is I used to mentor a lot of authors. It was the whole pay it forward thing. I feel like helping other people really helps me recharge my batteries.

I love finding an author that was doing like 80% of the things right, but I spot like 20% that could be fixed, and I like to help them get through that. At the time, I was charging people for that, and I always felt icky about having to charge people for mentorship.

It was a good gatekeeper because it got rid of the people who weren't really serious about it. Ultimately, what I ended up doing is I flipped that when I started bringing in co-authors.

So I find somebody who, again, has about 80% of the skill set that I think they need, that needs a little help on one part or another. I bring them in and I walk them through the entire writing process. So we come up with the idea for the book, the title, the tagline, the back-of-book blurb.

I hold their hand through the outlining process. I hold their hand through the writing process. I'd make them do the bulk of the work because I want them to walk away from this a better writer.

Then in the end, I own the book, because from an accounting standpoint, it's near impossible to do co-authored stuff on a royalty split. It seems to work really well for everybody. So I'm constantly looking for co-authors. I have people that send me stuff all the time.

If somebody in your audience is into that and they want to reach out, they can find me on my website.

Joanna: To be clear, that's not brand new authors.

You're looking for people who have written books, so they actually know what they're doing.

We're not talking about newbies.

JD: I mean, I get plenty of stuff from newbies too, and I'm waiting to find that gold in there. The truth is, this is just like any other profession. If you want to be a brain surgeon, they're not going to just throw you at the operating table. There's years’ worth of study and practice and things that go into play.

Writing is no different. To me, it's like a muscle. You have to work it out every day. Most people have to write maybe a half million words before they really figure out what they're doing.

So most of the people that find me that I end up signing, they've got one or two books they've written. Maybe they were with a small press, maybe they were with one of the big publishers, but it didn't work out. A lot of times that's a discoverability issue.

You could have the greatest title in the world, and Random House can put it out for you, but if the marketing plan doesn't hit just right, that book will fizzle and die. That doesn't mean the writer doesn't know what they're doing. So those are the kind of people that I'm looking for. I'm trying to find those hidden gems.

Joanna: Well, let's talk about marketing then. Of course, we've known each other years now, and I know stuff about you, but I was like, I'm just going to like Google JD to see what he's been doing recently.

This column came up in Rolling Stone and I was like, what is JD doing blogging on Rolling Stone magazine? Then I was like, oh, right, you used to kind of work tangentially in the music industry.

Why are you blogging for Rolling Stone magazine?

JD: You know, I think it was just a call back to the early days. Back when I was working then in the music business, I would have loved to write for Rolling Stone. That was like the Holy Grail back then.

They approached me a couple of years ago, and they said, “Hey, would you like to do a column for us?” So it occasionally shows up in the print, most of the time it's just online, but they let me write whatever I want.

So I write two or three columns a month on whatever topic I feel like talking about, which is fun. I mean, and it's good exposure. From a marketing standpoint, it gets my name out there on a regular basis. So it seems to work out.

Joanna: Well, it's funny though, because this seems to work out. I know you do ads and stuff. With an ad, you pay for an Amazon ad or whatever, and you get some clicks, and you can tell that it's working. With the Rolling Stone, maybe online they let you have a click-through or something, but—

How do you know that it's worth it?

JD: Well, it comes down to, again, this being a business and branding. So your brand, your name, needs to show up in front of people on a regular basis before they really recognize it.

So somebody may see a Rolling Stone article written by me. They may not buy my book for years, they may not buy it at all. But if they see my name once, twice, four or five, six times, just popping up in random places, all of a sudden, I'm a known commodity to them.

So they walk into a Barnes and Noble one day, and they're browsing the shelves, and all of a sudden my name jumps out at them. They recognize it. They don't quite understand why, but it speaks to them a little bit, and they pick up that book.

From a brand standpoint, anytime you can get your name out there, it's good. Try to do it as often as possible.

I do Facebook ads, I do Amazon ads, I do all those different things. I also do tons of podcasts. I do tons of radio. I do tons of television. Any opportunity I have to get my name or voice out there and talk about the book process, I do it.

Joanna: Yes, I noticed that. As I said to you, your team pitched me like multiple times, and I'm like, stop it already! I thought it was interesting because they did also pitch me from different angles and different companies.

I feel like what you've said there, that some of these things are branding, and some of these things are sales. So the ads are trying to link directly to sales, and then the branding is a sort of nebulous. I haven't got a clue how this is going to work, but maybe somehow it will if it's all together.

What percentage of your time are you doing between those two things? Have you outsourced all the ad stuff as well?

JD: The ad stuff I've got pretty much dialed in.

I tried outsourcing it, but then I found that the people that I talked to, like they are more than willing to take my money. They will put the ads out there, but the click-through rates that they were getting just weren't that great.

So I've done the same things that that that you have, and probably everybody in your audience has. I studied up on Facebook ads, and I post my own, and I just tweak them a little bit.

I do a lot of AB testing to figure out what images are working. I play with the text a little bit. I'm constantly changing them. I'm finding that my click-through ratios or rates are really low. Like, I get, like, between around five, six cents, sometimes. 11 cents, I think, is my average that I'm paying per ad on Facebook.

I like doing that. I think it's the autistic side of me too. Like I enjoy messing with something like that, coming up with a way to make it better. When I stumble into something that's working, I double down. I enjoy that process.

Joanna: Is your day half writing, half marketing?

JD: Pretty much. I mean, I start at seven in the morning. I turn off the internet first thing, and I just knock out whatever words I'm working on for my latest projects. I do about 2000 to 3000 words.

Then I turn the internet on, that's usually about 10:30 or 11, and let my inbox fill up and just kind of deal with the business side of stuff. Afternoons, I do interviews from around noon until three, and then my quitting bell rings at three o'clock.

Joanna: Oh, okay, because you have a daughter, don't you?

JD: I do. One of the things that started happening very early on is when my book started to sell in foreign territories, I would get interview requests at crazy hours, like 11 o'clock at night, two o'clock in the morning, because you're basically dealing with their schedule. I took all of those, and I quickly started to burn out.

I was like there's no way I can sustain this. So in today's world, I just kind of force everybody into that little box, 12 o'clock to three o'clock. I've worked with tons of publicists, too, on the promo side. It's funny, you said that they contacted you a lot of different times.

I had one publicist that I had paid a huge amount to on a monthly basis, a retainer, and they hardly got anything. The publicist that actually contacted you that I've been working with recently, like I pay her for podcast that she gets.

So if she gets me a podcast, she gets a certain percentage. If she gets me a newspaper review, she gets a certain dollar amount. Everything is a la carte, and she's been hustling. So I try to find publicists that are willing to work on those terms, rather than just a flat dollar amount where there's no guaranteed results.

Joanna: Yes, I think those people are quite rare.

JD: They are, but if you keep looking, you will find them.

Joanna: Well, it's also really interesting because I've been podcasting since 2009, and for many, many years, a lot of people used to talk about the traditional media stuff. Then book blog tours was a thing for a while. Then a lot of social media.

Then what's happened, really in the last 18 months, I would say, is that I get pitched a lot every day, from a lot of traditional publishers. So all the big houses pitching, and all they do is just send a press release directly to my email and say, you know, “Opportunity to interview JD Barker,” and then just a blurb from your book.

I'm just like, will these people stop it already? Because this isn't a pitch. So for people listening—I know you have done some of these yourself, although you work with people like—what are you trying to do when you pitch whatever podcast, media, newspaper, whatever?

What are you pitching that's more than just “here's my book sales description”?

JD: Well, we get them on Writer's Ink, too. So I totally get it. What kills me is when you get the ones that have absolutely nothing to do with the type of show that you do.

Joanna: Oh, yes. “Here's a credit card company.”

JD: Yes, or, “This guy is a business entrepreneur, and he can tell you all about real estate.” I'm like, that's not what our audience is looking for.

Again, I scatter shot this stuff. So I've done podcasts and interviews on autism. I've done it on the business of writing. I've done it on my latest book that's coming out.

I do all of them, because it's one of those things, like I'm honestly not sure what's working and what's not working, but I do know that that brand and name recognition is important. So the more places I get, the better.

It's funny where I get feedback from. I hear from a lot of parents that heard about me on an autism interview that have then went out and bought one of my books. So it all kind of crosses over.

I think if you talk to anybody who works in advertising, for the most part, they can't tell you what's working and what's not working, so they tend to do everything, which is sort of old school.

In today's world, I mean, you've got Facebook and Amazon ads, you can monitor metrics and you can kind of track it that way, but that only works for those types of ads.

One of the things that's always stuck with me, you know, Patterson told me this story years ago. His very first book, it was called The Thomas Berryman Number, and like, literally, nobody bought that. I don't even think he's got a copy of it.

His second book was Along Came a Spider, and the sales on that were decent at the beginning, but they weren't where he expected them to be or where he wanted them to be. So he spent $500 of his own money and created a television spot.

If you're old enough, you might remember this. It was just a graphic, and it said, “Your wait for the next Silence of the Lambs is over,” and a tiny little spider crawled down from the corner of the screen, and then it morphed into Along Came a Spider and the cover of the book.

So that was 500 bucks, but that's what actually launched that book and caused it to become a mega bestseller. He's constantly doing that, even in today's world when we've got a book coming out.

We just had one called The Writer, it debuted at number two on the New York Times list. He approved every single ad, television spot, Facebook ad, Amazon ad, whatever. Every one of them crossed his desk and he approved each one of them. I try to do the same thing.

Joanna: Well, he came from marketing, didn't he? Advertising?

JD: He did, yes. He actually wrote the Toys R Us theme song.

Joanna: I love this. I really respect him, obviously, as a writer, but also as a businessman. He was just doing something with Mr. Beast, right?

JD: Yes, he called me actually right after that meeting happened, and this was, geez, maybe about two months ago. He sounded as excited as a teenager. It was crazy. He's tried to explain this to me, and I honestly didn't know who Mr. Beast was until afterwards.

So that's the thing. Like, nobody expects him to do that book. Nobody expected him to write a book with Dolly Parton or Bill Clinton.

Joanna: Dolly Parton, after doing it with Bill Clinton.

JD: Yes, but that's what keeps him going.

Think of how that expanded his audience. Dolly Parton is huge on a worldwide basis.

All of a sudden they're reading James Patterson thrillers because he wrote that book.

Joanna: This is the thing, right? I mean, everyone, even if people don't “like”, in inverted commas, James Patterson's books, and I'm sure there's people listening who are like, “Oh, I'd never read a James Patterson.” It doesn't matter, because he is in his 70s, he's still hustling, he's still writing, he's still doing author business.

I mean, that is just impressive. That, to me, is very inspirational. It's interesting, because I've read bits and bobs of his over the years, you know, a book here, a book there. I don't read every one of his books. It's hard to read every one of his books because there's so many of them.

I recently read Eruption, which he did with the late Michael Crichton estate. What was so funny was I picked it up because I've read every single Michael Crichton, and I imagine a lot of other people out there did the same thing.

So this collaboration and co-writing, which you're now doing as well, is a really interesting model.

Is it marketing, or is it just a way of writing to a different market segment?

JD: Well, I think ultimately, he's using the books as marketing tools. Every one of them is a business card that's reaching out to a new segment of people. That's what I'm trying to do, too.

Joanna: The difference, I guess—and I mean, obviously, you build your name bigger and bigger every year, so I'm sure you'll be in a position to co-write with an ex-American president at some point.

I've co-written a couple of books, and I found it a very difficult process. In the kind of thing you're doing and what James Patterson's done, is there's a primary and there's a secondary, right? There's like a primary name and a secondary.

What he seems to be doing is also finding other primary brands, as such. Are you looking for other brands to collaborate with, rather than just authors who were kind of secondary? Do you know what I mean?

JD: I'm using every opportunity to expand my brand.

So if I can work with somebody who's going to take me into a different place. I'd love to work with a science fiction author at this point, because I could take a science fiction book and turn it into a thriller, and all of a sudden we're capturing people from both of those audiences.

That's really what a lot of this is about. I keep going back to the “casting a net” thing, but that's what you've got to do, I think, in order to become one of those household names. It's not something that happens overnight. It's done gradually over time.

Joanna: Yes, and I like that perspective, because I feel like in the indie community, we're pretty obsessed with having direct ROI. Like we have to see the ROI on the ad. So a lot of indie authors don't do the bigger brand building because it's so hard to measure. So that's a really good perspective.

I realize that we're almost out of time, but I did want to ask you about Author Nation, because you and I were on the same thriller panel last year. You're back in 2025, along with James Patterson, who is keynoting. Now, you're very successful, so why come to Author Nation as a successful author who knows what he is doing?

What are the benefits for a more advanced author coming to Author Nation?

JD: Well, I roped Jim into coming, so I'll give you the same pitch that I gave him. So I have gone to all the big conferences. I've been to ThrillerFest a bunch of times, I've been to Bouchercon, and my takeaway from a lot of those is, I literally had no more takeaways.

They were helpful for me for the first year or two, when I was first getting started, but after that, there was really no new information that I could utilize anymore.

They are very good at helping people get off that diving board with their debut novel. They're fantastic at promoting the big names that are out there. But they literally had no content for the rest of us who are basically in that muddy middle of trying to get from that debut novel to the household name status.

So when I went to Author Nation, I saw something a little different. I saw people not only marketing indie titles, but using a lot of the things that I feel the traditional markets could benefit from.

Those waters are getting very muddy at this point.

I don't really think there is indie and traditional anymore. I think everybody is somewhere in the middle, or should be somewhere in the middle.

They're all stealing from each other. I think indie authors look at the traditional publishers and they take what's working. Traditional publishers are doing the exact same thing. They are looking very closely at the indie market and taking what is working there.

That's why you see all these big name titles all of a sudden on BookBub and these places that they didn't do a few years ago. They're utilizing whatever they see working on the indie market.

So I see Author Nation as basically the next version of conferences. I think, properly done, they can create the content that the rest of us need to get from A to Z. To fill in that void in between and teach us how to keep their career going for the long term.

Joanna: I also feel that. As you say, I mean, there is a lot of content at Author Nation. If you're listening and you haven't written the first book, or you have written a book and you're just starting, there's a lot for those people. Then as you say, there's also a lot for us. A lot of meetings too, right?

We don't necessarily go to all the sessions. We're there for the meetings.

JD: I mean, again, it's comes down to contacts. There's plenty of people you're going to meet at Author Nation, and four or five years down the road, you may be able to help them, they may be able to help you, but all those contacts come into play.

Joanna: Yes, absolutely. So we'll be there, occasionally hanging out in the public spaces, although both of us struggle with a lot of people. Well, I feel like maybe everybody does at these things. There's just a load of introverts and probably a lot of autistic people all in the same room being scared of each other,

JD: Yes, but there's also alcohol. I force myself to get out there and talk. I won't stay in my hotel room as much as I want to. I try to get out on the floor and talk to as many people as I can.

Joanna: I agree. All right.

Where can people find you and your books online?

JD: Easiest place to find me is at JDBarker.com. I'm on all the social medias at @JDBarker. My latest title is called Something I Keep Upstairs, which just released on May 13.

Joanna: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, JD. That was great.

JD: Thanks for having me.

The post Casting A Wider Net: Author Brand And The Writing Business With JD Barker first appeared on The Creative Penn.