A lot of times design is undervalued or disrespected, right? It's like thought of as not serious. But if someone clicks on your headline and then the page is so overwhelming that they need to close it, it doesn't matter how great your journalism is,. Like in some ways we have to design things and we have to think about the visual piece because otherwise the information does not get across. I just think everyone cares about audience who wants to just be writing in a cave with no one hearing or seeing the things that you're doing.

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