Navigating the Trans Rights Debate

Join us as we delve deep into an analysis of a leftist article to understand the core reasons behind the left's failing strategies and potential recovery methods. We'll explore the shifts in public opinion, impactful cultural issues, and the role of bad actors in the trans movement. Discover insights on how leftist activists can reconnect with mainstream public sentiment and navigate the complexities of modern advocacy.

Malcolm Collins: Hello Simone. I am excited to be here with you today. Today we are going to be analyzing a piece that was written by Leftists and I think is the closest to understanding why they are actually failing and how they can reverse course. Ooh. Which is in a way concerning for me for a long time fighting the left.

It feels a bit like fighting the in Star Trek,

Basically every communist revolution ever.

Speaker: Hi, I'm King Packled

Speaker 2: It is an honor to meet you, sir.

Speaker 3: I'm emperor of the packs.

Speaker 4: Okay,

Speaker 5: the big helmets. Were no longer controller.

I'm now park leader. Be.

Malcolm Collins: where it's this race. It is. manevelent, but it is also tremendously stupid and ugly. Oh, okay. And so, like, they're, they're just like lumbering idiots, and they keep making mistakes and they're like, I bet it's because men are misogynist, that Kamala didn't win.

There's been a recent one that I might even wanna analyze if people want me to go deeper into it. There's like a big leftist analysis of how Trump manipulated results working with like Teal and Elon. And it's very much like a mirrored version of the right wing thing.

Wow. How

interesting. And I, I found it interesting because the way that they argued felt very much like the, the first time around, right?

It was almost like they studied, or they were even part of that first time around phenomenon, and now they're on the other side, whoever, whoever was doing this because they clearly had practice. So that'd be interesting to go into. But this one, it was from an article in The Guardian. You know, our personal PR team no, nobody gives us more free press than they do.

Getting guardian reporters to come to our house and report on us. There's been like 12 pieces this year, by the way. , Often feels a bit like this scene was the pcakled

Speaker 6: we are pack led. We are honest traitors. Oh, we need information. Oh, I, I, I don't know anything. You are pack led? Yes, we are pack led. Oh, then you have knowledge. You are not stupid. Well, no, we are not stupid. Then you will beam over and tell us what we need to know.

Oh no, though I'm afraid I will not be. Over why you are clinging on. We are pack lit. I do not understand you it is difficult to understand.

Well then you must come aboard our ship and explain why you are afraid to come aboard. Yes, I will do that. I will beam over and explain. , You are a good negotiator captain. Yes, but we are pack led.

Malcolm Collins: They really hate us by the way, but they, they're good at pumping out pieces on us, and they, they're, they're actually the least accurate of all the news sources that write on us. I, like, I've never seen any other news source make as many factual errors as the Guardian does. And I'm including tabloids here which has really surprising me.

But again, like a lot of old good newspapers like Vice and the NF, Alans vr, you know, Kirsha thing. Mm-hmm. Like, people would be like, what Vice is like the number one mistake publication on you? And Kirsha would be like, yeah. Like, they just make stuff up. You know, and so, it's interesting that publications that really stick to journalistic integrity one that has by the way, is the, the New York Times.

They're very diligent in, in checking things whenever they do a piece on us, but. To this instead of some insider baseball here. Let's go over this piece. We're gonna cut into like midway through it, it's called, how does the Woke Stark winning? Again, British progressives have suffered major setbacks in recent years, in both public opinion and court rulings.

Was the backlash inevitable and are new tactics needed by Gabby Siff? And I just hope that nobody hires this woman to do any strategy for the you know, the Labor Party or the Dems, right? That that'd be a little worrying to me. Or, or sorry, in the uk. She would probably be helping the Conservative Party because they're so woke.

But anyway, anyway, anyway, a joke there. The to, robert went Mute is a professor of human rights law at King's College London, a gay man who worked for decades on anti-discrimination test cases and helped draft the so-called yata principles, a founding statement of the campaign for self-identification, or the right for trans people to gain legal recognition in their preferred sexual orientation or gender identity without requiring a doctor's diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

In a 2005 book, he argued that LGB people had a moral duty to speak out for the T. His new book, transgender Rights Verse, women's Rights from Conflicts to Coexistence explains why he changed his mind. So what I find really interesting here, and I think that this is what Wokes should have been doing mm-hmm.

Is exploring why people who used to be on their team, or it used to be like Unmitigated Lee on their team, switched their beliefs. You know, I see a lot of people, you know, they'll look at like JK Rowling and they'll be like, okay, she went transphobic, right. And it's like, but like. I have never seen a leftist really deeply try to understand what changed her mind in this area.

Yeah. It's clear she's not a conservative Christian and she certainly didn't have any alliance, was the old conservative movement, like why did she change her position on the, the, the, from one of, of, of unmitigated trans support to trans skepticism and. With Elon, it's less of a question for people.

A lot of people like this is a personal beef with his kid. And I think that that's part of it. But the question is, is why did he even begin to start that personal beef with his kid, right? Mm-hmm. Like, or you can look at individuals like us who have gone to the right, right? Like we used to be leftists.

Right? Right. Solidly leftists. And now I consider myself solidly a rightist on, on almost every issue. Like we're not even, you know, toe dippy about this stuff at this point. Right. And, and a lot of people would be like, well, you, you're not like racist or antisemitic or like, yeah, that's not the right, okay.

You don't like hate gay people. It's like, that's not the right, you know, I've, I, I've done a lot of episodes supporting the right for different cultures who'll have different perceptions of things like this. And I think that that's all we can really hope to win as the right, right now, you know, fight.

Absolutely. To not have like Mormons canceled because they hold Mormon beliefs. Yeah. We're,

Simone Collins: we're just fighting for cultural sovereignty, which is so different from what. We grew up thinking the right was about

Malcolm Collins: well, because the right wasn't about that when we grew up, they had enough power to enforce their cultural

Simone Collins: Yeah.

It, it, it, at the time was the party of cultural imperialism. And now that has inverted,

Malcolm Collins: they, they, they had enough power to enforce their beliefs on the general population through voting. And now the urban monoculture is the core cultural force. So the people who are resistant to it, which was mostly weirdos like us and religious conservatives and people who just wanna be able to live their lives without being constantly harassed for being men.

You know, they all find common ground with each other in a way that, that can confuse some people who assume that we're still dealing with the party from 30 years ago.

Mm-hmm.

And I don't know why people just like, don't update. I, I guess a lot of them are like sad that things changed. Like the left is sad that they're no longer the party being oppressed, and so they just pretend that they're not and the right, no, I

Simone Collins: genuinely think they don't know that.

Just like we, we receive literal physical hate mail from people who still read Paul Ehrlich's book, the population bom and literally think there are too many people and, and that we're gonna overpopulate and not be able to feed everyone. Wow. So I think people just don't update very easily.

Malcolm Collins: Mm-hmm. It makes sense.

Okay, so let's continue here. So this guy used to be like as pro trans as you could be, and then he flipped against it. Mm-hmm. And people might ask like, why are you so focused on the trans issue? Before I go further, why are conservatives so focused on this issue when it applies to such a small number of people?

And there are a number of reasons for this. The first is the scale of the wrong being committed is astronomical. Even if it's only a few people, if the left normalized guys going around like, like far leftist guys and no one else gets to, you know, every Sunday at school flash the other kids like, you'd be like and they, they're like, well, only a few kids participate in this per state.

And it's like, it doesn't matter. Like if, if, if they had like fighting rings where like men got to beat up on, on little girls, right? Like, you'd be like, and they're like, ah, this only happens a few times a year. And it's like, it doesn't matter. Like. The, the, the, the shock of it and the shock of the dehumanization involved in it.

And as well as the, the lack of consent that's required. You know, you have this phenomenon where it was the gay movement. They wanted to be able to live life the way they wanted to be able to live. It was the trans movement. It's that they want to force you to, to recognize their lifestyle. They want to be able to force you without your consent to gender them in the way they want to be gendered.

And that's just cultural imposition. You know, e especially if they're not passing. And most conservatives, as I've seen, do correctly gender people who pass. But the specific instance of individuals who clearly get off on violating other people's consent and intentionally not passing like Alec Van Menon or something like that.

This is a kink, like this is not whatever we were told dysphoria was. And so, the fact that they cannot just violate people's consent. Wantonly and they're supported by the dominant culture, but they can violate children's consent wantonly, and regularly do this.

For example, look at the way people dressed at like drag reading hour at children's, bookstores and stuff like that. , This is clearly not people who just want to pass as another gender. , This is a sexualized outfit that is closer to something like going to a children's bookstore in lingerie.

This is an outfit that is used. To express one's sexuality, not one's gender, and to impose that on children. That is why, even if it's happening rarely, the fact that you cannot help us prevent this means that we need to keep getting louder and louder on this issue.

You know, this is where I have to come back and be like, okay, like even if it's a small number of people it's, it's something we need to like address as a society and the left, not just like fervently is against addressing it, but we'll try to ruin your life if you even bring it up as an issue.

And I think that that's the other thing, right? Like is it's not like they're just like, we don't wanna have this conversation. It's like what happened with Kirsha? It's like, I want you to be living on the street. If you at all looking, I will destroy

Simone Collins: your career, your reputation, your job prospects.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

But to continue, how did this person turn right? Whitman was teaching summer school in 2018 when a student asked why in law a married person who transitioned must seek their spouse's consent to remain in what would be a same sex marriage. When Whitman said the rationale was protecting the spouse's, right, he was challenged by the trans student , who walked out when the professor said that trans rights don't trump all others in law.

This student, he writes, didn't seem to have considered that non-transgender people have human rights. And, and this is something we regularly see, this is what I'm talking about with this consent thing. They don't understand. They're like, I should have the right to force you to gender me, whatever your cultural norms, however you see what a man and a woman is to see it in my way.

This isn't like a, a rare phenomenon for like one individual. This is core to the direction the entire movement has gone. And it didn't need to go this way. Like there is a way that it went in a direction which it was originally going. If you look at where the movement was going in like the eighties and stuff like that where it was just, you know.

Normalize w constraint. And not to highlight, as we've talked about in other episodes, the, the CE bytes who use the trans identity for cover to, to wantonly violate other people's consents because they fundamentally don't believe other people have rights. And I've never seen a leftist realize this before or be like, oh, I hadn't considered, but it's, it, it's true.

That's a big issue that we are defending a community that tries to dehumanize and strip the rights of other cultural groups and communities. Mm-hmm.

Simone Collins: Especially. Yeah, that's a really good point. I, I've never seen someone on the left discuss the consent issue, the trans consent issue. That's really huge.

Yeah. That's really strange too, because they're all about consent.

Malcolm Collins: Well, they're not really about consent. They're about

Simone Collins: they would say they're all about consent. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: They're about pretending they're about consent. But, if you look at what they push particularly was in the trans movement or the common fantasies you see was in this movement as we went into like the Anna episode, A lot of free use stuff, a lot of complaints.

You can go to our life of the CTE episode where she complains that not enough cis women were sleeping with her. Mm-hmm. And so they should be forced to sleep with her. Th that, that, that, that is the only way to create equity. And that she was not canceled for this. You know, she says this and then has a career as a, as a writer at Vice, where she is writing multiple spurious articles that are just completely fictional in their accusations.

Calling somebody else a Nazi. They then had to take down all those articles and somehow she still has a job. Anyone else who this happened to would lose their job. Right. Like, but you see the degree of a protected class you have within the urban monoculture. She just lied in these articles.

Just lied. Said that Ki said something racist when all she said is that that, that she was a great replacements series when all she said was that DI demographics are changing. But to continue here, ostracized by old allies, Whitman started speaking at events organized by the LGB Alliance, a group formed to oppose Dawn Well's 2015 adoption of trans alongside gay, lesbian and bisexual rights.

Though some trans activists consider the alliance as a hate group, a legal bid by trans group mermaids to block its registration as a charity failed in 2023. So consider how psychotic that is. There is a group of people who are saying, we should not be considering trans alongside LGB, and that's it.

They're, they're not saying like, we need to oppress trans people or anything like that. And that trans people feel like they have such a right. To this movement that other people fought for, as we've talked about, if you go back to the beginnings of the gay rights movement it was vast majority cis gay males, which are the most othered group right now, was in the movement.

The most sort of low status group. I can only imagine the horror that they would feel if they worked their entire lives for this. And now they see this movement being used by you know, CNA bytes to well, there are,

Simone Collins: I mean, you could see also not just them being misused by people who are often abusing them, but it being a fundamentally different thing because one is a collection of different sexual orientations.

Mm-hmm. The other is. A very, very different thing. I mean, absolute, if you're trans, it doesn't mean you have a different sexual orientation. It means that you want to be seen differently by the world. That's extremely different from let me be free to choose the partner that I want.

Malcolm Collins: Absolutely. There there is like actually no reason for them to be tied together like this.

Yeah. It's,

Simone Collins: it's like, it's, yeah. It's like taking like, you know, breast cancer awareness month and being like, why aren't we discussing Alzheimer's right now? Like. This is insulting.

Malcolm Collins: I like that they you know, they highlighted this here. Mm-hmm. That, that there was a, a, a bid to block the creation of a group that is just asking for cultural sovereignty Yeah.

Of people with alternate sexual orientations Yeah. Versus people with, you know, gender dysphoria or whatever trans individuals have. Mm-hmm. And, and note here, when I talk about the SOA bytes, I use this word to specifically differentiate them from quote unquote real trans individuals.

Which

we've argued in other episodes.

It's probably a culture bound illness similar to anorexia, but they really feel gender dysphoric, right? Like, I don't know, the way we're dealing with it now, it's the best way to deal with it, but they really feel that way. That is clearly not true. Of the individuals who are flashing women in, in, in, in, in locker rooms like we had with the Leah Thomas case or ate Mimon where they're not even trying to pass or a lot of other, you know, high profile trans activists where there just isn't even an attempt to pass.

This is not what we were sold. We were not sold that we would have to. That, that we, we were told that you had some issue where you wanted to be gendered in a specific way because you were born like in the different body. And I was like, you know, early on I was like, okay, like let's give them these rights.

Let's see how they use it. Right? And then when a sub faction took over the movement and started using them to violate other people's consent that the movement didn't expel that sub faction. If you want to learn more about why they didn't, you can see the, why didn't the left band, the sex fest episode that we did.

That's when I was like, okay, well, you know, the fact that you guys haven't addressed this internally means that we you know, externally need to fight against this because I don't want children exposed to this. And a here what you see is this individual over time seeing how culturally imperialistic these individuals are and increasingly becoming radicalized even though he was one of the sort of origins of the modern trans rights movement, right?

It was. A lecture Whitman planned to give in Montreal on this concept of divorcing the LGB from the T that sparked first an open letter accusing the university of actively contributing to the genocide of trans people. Keep in mind, he just wants to give a letter. Do you not see this as cultural imperialism?

He just wants to say, we wanna separate this one group when it makes perfect sense to separate the one group, because they're nothing like the other group. He's like, we should look at people with sexual orientations one way and people with gender and, and, and, and you are trying to prevent him from even talking about this.

And this is what we're talking about here when we're like, the reason why, even though it's a small group, it's such a big thing to conservatives, is the way that you try to ruin anyone's life who challenges this cultural norm. If you didn't do that, there wouldn't be as much pushback. But you do do that.

And so. People end up radicalized on the other side. And I think that this is in part what radicalized JK Rowling was the way that people attacked her, who she had formally attempted to help and was just trying to introduce some nuance to the conversation in the early days. Mm-hmm. And she became increasingly radicalized as it became obvious to her that these people just didn't want other cultural groups to have to, to, to have a right to consent.

Right. Yeah. You know,

if you're a religious individual and you see gender in one way, you should be forced to talk about them. I, i, in their preferred way. If you don't believe that, you know, it's appropriate to flash somebody it doesn't matter if they identify in a certain way, they get to do that.

Just before I go further the flashing thing, we talked about this another one, but it's important to note people do not get naked in locker rooms anymore. They haven't for a long time. Like Simone did professional swimming well not professional, but school swimming all stretch like varsity

Simone Collins: and like both school-based, high school varsity team and.

Like swim team, like sitting on, never

Malcolm Collins: once did she see a naked woman. So the fact that Leah Thomas ,was walking around a flashing individuals with male genitalia from the perspective of their cultural groups shows that this was an intentional act.

It was not like, yeah,

Simone Collins: people aren't even flashing female genitalia in, in moments. Now some people have pointed out in the comments when we brought this up before that like, oh, well that was high school and it's different in college. I kind of doubt it. Now one thing that also people pointed out though and I know I really did notice this in mixed age women's locker rooms.

So I also belong to a health club where I swam and it was private health club for just people doing like everything from like pickleball to like Pilates classes to swimming, women who were 60 years or above walked around naked Flapjack and everywhere, like, oh, that's because they grew up in a different cultural number of times.

Yeah. So yeah. My argument is, is like, absolutely there are locker rooms where women are walking around naked, but they are not below, I would say, 50 years of age.

Malcolm Collins: And, and certainly not below, you know, 25 years of age, which is what you had. Oh. You know, yeah.

Simone Collins: The, the idea of that is just beyond laughable to me.

Malcolm Collins: By hosting him. And then a fully fledged protest on the day Whitman remembers arriving to a chorus of f your system, f your hate, trans rights are not up for debate. The lecture was abandoned after protesters that broke into the room and threw flower. But if the aim was to shut him down, it backfired.

So again, they are turning this guy who is like one of their OG biggest supporters and just had started with very, very reasonable concerns into a radical against them. Mm-hmm. And I think that this is what happened to people like us or people like Elon or people like Rowling. And I think that this catches what's actually happening here and why so many people have moved to the right.

Mm-hmm. People kept asking me how I knew Trump was gonna win this election cycle, and I was like, look. Do you know a single human being who has moved from the right to the left between Trump running last time and Trump running this time. Mm. And I can't the only person I could think of you really did keep

Simone Collins: making this argument.

And I'm like, well, yeah, but like, I don't know. I just thought good things. But why is everybody

Malcolm Collins: moving in one direction? It's because of stuff like this. Yeah. It's not even like the left has run too far. I think that meme undersells for the left what's happening because then the leftist could see that meme and be like, oh, you know, we ran too far in this direction and left some people behind.

And the point is that that isn't what happened. This is not just running in a certain direction. This is the moment. Somebody dissents, you attempt to ruin their lives. This is cultural imperialism and a colonialist attitude at its finest. Almost the embodiment of it. And it's a European cultural group.

I mean, that is what the LGBT movement is, the modern pride movement, culturally speaking, completely got its background in, you know, Europe and the Americas. And so trying to impose this European cultural movement on other people I think is something that should cause a lot of cognitive dissonance with these groups.

And the degree of cognitive dissonance that it causes is I think, why they don't really address this stuff.

Simone Collins: Absolutely.

Malcolm Collins: But if the aim was to shut him down, he said it backfired. TV interviews he gave about. The Farra reached more people via YouTube than the lecture would have, and six days later, publishers accepted his book proposal.

He wasn't silenced, but amplified, and if anything, encouraged to double down. Mm-hmm. These days he argues that perhaps there shouldn't even be a right to legally change sex, birth certi on birth certificates or passports. Perhaps you consider this view extreme enough to justify his attempted cancellation, but it is one shared by a startling 50% of the British public according to a authoritative British social surveys attitude.

So the point here being is now he's then extreme is from their perspective, but their perspective extremists hold the position of the average British person. They think that somebody should lose their job, that they should be attacked in public, that they should be shouted at because they hold the average position.

And that he was pushed towards this position by repeated attempts like this without anyone. I bet if that very first time in the classroom when that one trans person walked out, some other trans person was like, Hey, I just wanna be clear. Like that person has issues. They should not be able to violate their spouse's consent.

You know, very similar to that South Park episode with Mr. Slave and Mr. Garrison. Right.

Speaker 7: That's something for us too. Would you like to take this beautiful woman to bay it? No thanks. No, no thanks. Come on Mr. Slave. I wanna try out my new snoog. I can't believe you just went ahead and had that surgery without even asking me what I thought. Well, I assumed you supported me. It's still me. I just have a vagina instead of a painted.

Speaker 9: But I'm gay. I don't like vaginas. Don't you even care that I was suffering? I wasn't happy the way I was. It's great that you feel better, but you never stop to think about how the people around you would feel, look, we can still be together. All you have to do is stop being gay.

Malcolm Collins: And I think that he wouldn't have gone off the rails if he had seen people Yeah. Up. Yeah. If someone had

Simone Collins: just been like, that's not normal. We don't, he's not with us.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. But you never, ever, ever get that. Yeah.

Which if you wanna understand why there's like cultural evolutionary reasons why, and you can see our, why the Left doesn't push out the sex best

episode. Mm-hmm.

What makes Whitman's journey from sympathy with self ID to hostility is worth studying, is that it mirrors strikingly rapid, broader shifts in public opinion.

In 2016, the year a cross party com commons committee, first backed self id, the survey found 58% of Britain's supported the right to change legal sex. And only 17% admitted feeling prejudice against trans people was in a year the Prime Minister, Theresa May promised to consult on reforming gender recognition, but by 2022, the British Social Attitude Survey found public backing for the legal right to change sex.

Almost halved an admissions of anti-trans president prejudice had doubled. Wow. At a time when public opinion became more liberal on other social issues. And, and I really do think like one, if you go back to 2016, you and I would've been Ardently Pro being able to choose your gender.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Like I wouldn't have understood at all why this could cause problems.

What really happened is a lot of us thought this was a good idea. We gave people the right, and then bad actors started using it. And now we're like, are you guys not gonna police this? And they're like, no, not really. And we're, yeah. I do think

Simone Collins: that the, just to highlight that the initial support for this shows that this was bad actors.

Like it was their game to lose. They had won it. They had, yeah, they had

Malcolm Collins: won. And it's society is becoming more liberal and other issues, but less liberal here. And that's why I also highlight the trans community is really being much more of a core reason why the left is losing the culture wars right now.

And, and, and, and we'll continue to lose the culture of wars. Then I think a lot of them think, you know, they, they, they, there's this perception of, well, it's really not that bad. It's just a few people. It's like, well, those few people keep overreaching in ways that are absolutely obscene.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm. So they're gonna take away everything.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Like the Anna Valence case, like the, the where she tried to cancel Kirsha for, for just saying, you know, demographics are changing. And she's like, this is racist. She was even quoting a liberal PM when she said that. And using Vice, using her position there, reaching out to her sponsors, trying to ruin her life.

This is going to build sympathy even for people who would've hated her, right? Like, this is something that's very easy to go viral because there's so obviously a good guy and a bad guy, and it's so damaging to the left because the, there, there is a group that spreads it on the left. But this is a group that I.

Would never, like, they're, they're, they're not like in the middle, they're not open to voting. Right. You know? And, and some of them might end up voting, right? Like, I think this guy who we're reading about now would've originally been in this group who would've been like, you go girl for anti valence.

Right. But you know, as we pointed out, she, she's forcing people to read her fetish content. You know, she's putting it on non fetish platforms. She's even writing it into Vice and like the opening platform that she used, this should have been immediate dismissal. You know, you, you shouldn't be able to violate other people's consent with your fetish content.

I mean, yet it's been normalized.

Mm-hmm.

But sorry, I, I, the reason I was coming to this is I, I, I think I. The, the trans phenomenon. I'm not saying that the left has to drop the trans community mm-hmm. But they have to figure out how to deal with the bad actors. Um hmm. And there has been no attempt. And in this article, this is the very first time I've seen them be like, and all of these things were not reasonable what they did to this guy.

You know, like, we, we should have done something to prevent this.

Simone Collins: Yeah. There's the breakthrough, right. That's the, that's the first time I've seen anyone leaning left saying, you know what? This, this wasn't cool. Which is nice. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: I don't think, I mean, I think they might even get canceled for this article.

Right. So, you know, right.

Simone Collins: I mean, yeah. To whatever extent this is accepted with imply progress. But I mean, what I came away from this, when you first highlighted that part of the article to me was, oh, that's it. Like the thing that would. Make the left viable again as if it dropped trans advocacy because you can't have trans advocacy, you not trans

Malcolm Collins: advocacy, trans advocacy for obvious bad actors.

Simone Collins: Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I think it's kind of hard.

Malcolm Collins: No, it's, no, I, it, it's very easy to do. Okay.

Simone Collins: How would, how would you, how would you do that? Because a lot of trans advocacy is like, well, anyone who. Says they feel a certain way, gets to enter women's only spaces, and that's when they, and there

Malcolm Collins: needs to be a movement on the left that's just like, we thought we could do this.

We thought we could be permissive about this. I understand. It seemed like the ethical thing to do because we're not, you know, this was the true scrum versus too cute debate because we're not, you know, overly relying on doctors, which can introduce sociological privilege to the concept. Mm-hmm. It made sense within that time period to make this call.

Mm-hmm. But if you just look at the data, they have lost a lot of their biggest supporters because of these bad actors. And the bad actors. Maybe you can watch our, why they don't kick them out. Video our. Are probably not really bringing them that much utility. And, and, and, and so they just need to be like, Hey, let's go back to people should be able to choose the way they live their lives, but not force that on other people or not force other people to be exposed to that.

And I know that that will lead to some, into conveniences for trans individuals. But I think if you are an actual gender dysphoric person, you would prefer those inconveniences than seeing all of these bad actors stealing your movement and identity to hurt the perception of trans people. Look at somebody like Anna Valent.

He has significantly hurt the perceptions of trans individuals in communities that otherwise would have been open to them.

Yeah.

You know, the, the, they are stealing your identity and using it to damage your community's reputation and will eventually erode your rights. The question is, is can you control that erosion or and it's not right.

So it's not really, I mean, your right to impose your, you know, perception of yourself on others without their consent. I don't view that as a viable right in our society. But. You know, they will erode things past even that like I think that there was a time where if this had been addressed early enough, the whole non passings people in locker rooms thing that could have been something that we came to a compromise on.

But because it was so systemically and repeatedly abused you know, because they had that support for, you know, people transferring the gender of their prison and then people were getting griped and having kids like, and it was clearly like just a really horrifying thing that this was happening or that the government was paying for this for things like prisoners was like Kamala thing.

Like all of these are clearly bad actors. There should have been somebody in the room to be like, Hey the prisoners who are getting this, they're clearly bad actors. This isn't people that we want representing this movement, and they're going to end up representing this movement because the conservative, they're going to take them in the same way that like.

You probably shouldn't be waving a Mexican flag on top of a burning car in LA right now. I don't care if that's culturally normative. Was in your group. To most Americans, it makes it look like there is an occupation. And it freaks them out. Worse, not sending

Simone Collins: a good signal. Yeah. Seems very media.

Malcolm Collins: All these protests, peaceful, were like, oh. So they're lying to us because I can see the burning cars. I can see the Molotov cocktails. Yeah. I can see the videos of the people throwing rocks through random car windows. Not even like cop windows. Which could kill someone. Right. You know? And, and these people are not being turned on by the left.

If the left had had apprehended these people, I think that would've been a huge win for them. And yet, instead, Trump has to send in the government to basically clean this up. Yeah. Though some will blame the press or politicians for stoking a backlash and more a in commons, I. Report explicitly acknowledges that media outlets can play a role of fermenting different viewpoints In quote, over culture war issues, Stonewall has historically won gay rights victories in the teeth of a more overtly homophobic, tabloid press.

Hmm. And, and, and, and I think you guys need to recognize what you just said there. You were winning more victories when you were the underdogs, when you weren't actively violating other people's consent or using mainstream media outlets to attack people like Anna Valence did with Vice. Like you were winning when you were not in the business of forcing yourself on other people.

That's the ding, that's the light that should go on in your head. Oh, can we do something about those individuals?

Simone Collins: Right.

Malcolm Collins: In retrospect, Stonewall seemingly fell into a trap identified by more in common of overstating how mainstream their views were. While gender critical feminist organizations such as a Woman's Place UK focused on persuading the wavering via open public meetings, jubilant at what seemed an easy victory on self id, Stonewall had adopted a trans women are women get over it stance declaring that, and the problem here is, is that's a fine stance to take, but you can't now say anybody who says they're trans is trans.

Like, obviously that's gonna lead to bad actors.

Simone Collins: See, that's where I'm like, I don't, I don't, I don't know if you can do that at all. Like, I just don't know if trans can be part of the movement and have the movement be something that is adopted on a mainstream level because I, while I, I respect. I, I do, I do agree with you that there are versions of trans that are very reasonable and there are people who just wanna quietly transition and go under hormone replacement therapy and be trans and just live their lives advocating for their rights.

It seems like the only people who are actually willing to publicly push for it are doing so in ways that are abusive, because otherwise you're just using the bathroom you pass in. Otherwise you're just quietly undergoing hormone replacement therapy. Otherwise, you're just. Doing what you need to do to make it happen.

You know, getting the training right, and there's many

Malcolm Collins: trans YouTube training are beginning to fight against this, right. Uhhuh. But the problem is, within leftist culture only a trans person can really push back against this and it isolates them from so much of their community while they're already isolated from other communities because other communities have dealt with abuse from this community.

Right. So I, I get that. I also wanna point out here, I think they're right here, there is a huge misunderstanding about how normal their views are in the general population. Yeah. And also a huge misunderstanding of how normalized their views are within the elite, in contrast to the general population.

The, if you look at like the media or you know, what's being produced at Netflix or what's being produced at Amazon, or what's being produced at Hulu or, you know, the Guardian or the New York Times staff or anything like that. You know, like you could even go to Fox and you're not gonna find a lot of like, actively specifically anti-trans stuff.

It'll be be more like be reasonable stuff. Right. Was in the media class, you have sort of complete dominance. But your actual average American or British person is like I'm not so sure about that. And when it looks like the media is covering things up, or when it looks like major media companies are attempting to press a a, an agenda on them, this gives you opponents the same advantage that you had when the tabloids and press used to be homophobic.

It is the way that the media has been used to press a form of cultural imperialism and colonialism of your European cultural group against you know, sort of diverse religious communities, whether you're, you're pushing yourself on Muslims who, who do not like this, you know, or you're pushing yourself on conservative Christians, or you're pushing yourself on conservative Jews or, or your families like ours.

Mm-hmm.

While willing to engage in debates that furthered understanding, we do not, and will not acknowledge any conflict between trans rights and women's based rights. Why, why won't you acknowledge that? That's a, that's a problem that you won't, there there are debates. You will not have the right, doesn't really have debates that we will not have except to the right of the right.

So by that what I mean is we're willing to have a debate about anything within the gender or sexual or orientation space. I would not have a debate over things like ethnic differences. You know, I'm, I'm just like, I'm not gonna deal with that. I'm not gonna touch that. I, I do not see any benefit to engaging with that.

And, and we see lots of right wing channel are just like, we're not gonna do that. You know, that, that, that only is a bad pathway to go. And, and so that's something, it is really interesting that the left. Really only polices debates to the right and the right, really only police debates to the right, which makes them more easily able to engage leftist arguments.

And people can say like, well, this is a problem among the right. And I'm like, it's not a problem if we win, if we continue to win and continue to strip back. I mean, we've already seen the vibe shift post-Trump selection. We're already seeing it, you know, this pride months. We, we can win this. We just need the greedy people who wanna go like, and, and keep in mind, like, I don't hold those beliefs.

I don't, I don't hold these, these crazy far right beliefs. But the, the individuals who are like, okay, now we won some victories, let's go further.

Yeah, they

hurt everyone in the move. And, and they're sort of the rights version of the trans activist. Your Nazi or racist is our version of the trans activist.

And so long as we do a good job of keeping the Nazis and the racists in check and not you know, because the thing that made an valence look so bad was that she called Kirsha a Nazi and a racist when Kirsha had never done anything racist or Nazi. And that's a weapon we can keep using so long as we don't actually start platforming racist a Nazis.

Simone Collins: Hmm, true.

Malcolm Collins: , And I note here, people can be like, oh, like the far people, like even people like Courtesy Arvin, like I've talked about him, where he's gotten labeled like a, he hasn't actually, from what I've seen, said anything racist. He said two things that separately could be plugged together to make him look racist on a Wikipedia page.

And that's how they got to him. But I don't think that like, that is you know, the, the smoking gun that, that other people think it is. The point I'm making here is even respected intellectuals on the right. Do not engage with these topics. And I do not think that anyone who is engaging with them is really an ally at the right.

Because there's just not utility.

Yeah, I, I

understand, like I've read the Poer pieces about why there might be utility in engaging with the topics. I don't see it. You're gonna lose elections. Yeah. And again, I want to be clear, this is not me saying I, I am just trying to argue to the people who do believe it why you shouldn't be racist or a Nazi.

This is my argument where like, even if you believe all of it, you shouldn't do it. It, it is not helpful. Even if you believe, and, and I would give the same advice to left, even if you believe that like, a sex PE should be allowed to violate other people's consent and like flash school girls in a locker room and like, you know, go to kids without their parents around and like do story hours and stuff like that to try to indoctrinate them into your culture out of their culture.

You know, even if you believe all of that, you are gonna win more if you can stay quiet about all that. Yeah. If you can just be like, okay, well let's not in go into those indulgences again. Yeah.

Simone Collins: I mean, the point you've made also in arguments about tism and why the extreme ends of each sub faction like us with the super bio accelerationism and other more religious factions like total bans on contraception.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: And IVF, like there's no point in arguing for those things to be pervasive and, and widely made public or enforced because it's not gonna happen. Yeah. So like, shut up about it. Like there's nothing productive about this. You're only hurting yourself. It's not Yeah. This is like

Malcolm Collins: complete. Complete ban on abortion or complete ban on gay marriage is gonna struggle to win if only Republicans voted it.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Or like pervasive government support for modifying humans to make superhuman soldiers. So here she's talking about, that's just not gonna happen. We'd love that.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. We

Simone Collins: would love for the government to be engineering super soldiers right now, but it's just not gonna happen. So it's like, so we don't press for it.

Yeah. So like, don't push for it. Yes. Just, just, just stop making fetch happen. It's not gonna happen.

Malcolm Collins: Well, it's not that it's not gonna happen. You, you know, you might be able to make one of these ideas popular within the right, you know, banning gay marriage, re complete banning of abortion re, but but even if you win, it's

Simone Collins: not gonna take it like this.

Even if you win

Malcolm Collins: the primaries, you're not gonna win anything after that. And we're gonna lose power.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah.

Which is why actually you've seen campaigns on from, from opposing political sides, like on the left. Sometimes on the left you'll see we've had the Democratic party support. Far right candidates for primaries because they know that if they win in the primary, they won't win it all.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: Which is, it is very smart. It's one of my favorite tactics I've seen because it's, it's, it's aikido. It's using your, your enemy's momentum against them. So don't give them the chance. It's so dumb. Anyway. Hmm. And,

Malcolm Collins: and I also point out here that people are like, you guys aren't real rightists. We are further than the average American conservative to the right on most right issues.

Whether it's our perspective on abortion whether it's our perspective on, you know, trans stuff, whether it's our perspective on and I think that people, some people on the right are just delusional in the same way that some of these leftists are about what the average right winger actually is these days in America.

Your average right winger these days in America. You're looking for a good example. I think Asma Gold is probably a good example. And, and so you can think to yourself, is Asma Gold gonna be excited about you guys pushing this? Or is he gonna be like, come on guys, like that's too far.

Simone Collins: Hmm. Yeah, so

Malcolm Collins: some activists insisted it was transphobic, even to say, conflict existed, for example, over access to domestic violence refugees through the equity act in 2010, explicitly anticipating conflicts.

And, and here, this is from a website, transphobia.org. Where they, they, they actually go into the just transphobia actual.org.uk. Just, you can't even mention that there might be an issue with people abusing this. But refusing to answer difficult questions did not make them go away. Instead, they were ultimately settled in the court where gender critical feminists won a string of victories culminating at a Supreme Court earlier this year, A campaign for self ID initially enjoying cross party support had somehow ended not just in defeat, but in reverse with trans people losing hard won access, at least on the equality and human right commissions interpretation of the ruling to everything from grassroots support to public toilets.

And they have lost grassroots support. And this is something that's a major issue because now the right can grab this issue and use it against you.

Simone Collins: Exactly.

Malcolm Collins: The man task was picking up the pieces is Stonewall's new CEO, Simon Blake, a 51-year-old veteran of the early two thousands battle to repeal 28 salary section 28, which once banned teachers from quote unquote promoting the idea that homosexuality was acceptable.

Blake is signaling a return to more persuasive gradualist campaigning style of those years. What I have been really interested in is how much we used to know. That you had to win the hearts and minds and you had to have conversions that you had to go into places where people didn't like you. And it was one step at a time.

So here this is really important 'cause he's write about this, the left, because of this, we don't have debates to the right of our positions. They don't go into the rightest environments. They're not debating the, the the rightest YouTubers at the same rate. And when they do, like Gavin Newsom, they end up getting, you know, heavily shamed.

And the problem, or the thing that he's not realizing here is he's like, we can go back to this incrementalist approach, but the incrementalist approach doesn't happen if there are still bad actors at doing the violation of consent of individuals and turning it all into something about that.

Simone Collins: Hmm.

Yeah. Absolutely. When I was

Malcolm Collins: at the National Union of Students as Chief executive, one of the things which was very different for me, it generationally was the, I'm not going to educate you Google it thing, and you didn't win hearts or minds by saying Google it. Campaigns that need, he argues to regain human touch.

And what you really see here with those types of arguments is they're just trying to use their cultural authority and power by being the dominant culture in the halls of power, whether it's at companies or media or et cetera to, to force you to adopt to their cultural norms without attempting to convince you that their cultural norms are logical,

And the the right hasn't been doing.

I mean, some people on the right do this, and I think that it's a really bad way to handle it. You'll see individuals who basically do these righteous, like social dominance hierarchies, like, well, I, you know, hate gays more than you, therefore I'm more righteous and higher status with in. And it's like, no, you're just losing a, like, you, you are are EE extremist than a byte advocate.

The other bit, which is different, sorry, I should clarify. The, the ttes we've thing before them before they're from Hellraiser, this race of people who lives in another dimension where they explore the extent to the, they can feel pleasure and self validation and it ends up in then like ripping off all their skin and disfiguring themselves.

And then attempting to lure new people into this lifestyle. And it's from the eighties horror film hell raiser. And I think it, it's a good way to differentiate the people who are victimizing the trans population, which are the eNotes using their hard won wins to play out their sexual fetishes.

And the people who are actually trans advocates.

Doors to the pleasures of heaven nor hell. I didn't care, which I thought I'd gone to the limits I hadn't. The center bytes gave me an experience beyond the limits pain and pleasure.

Indivisible.

Malcolm Collins: The other bit here for me, which is different and doesn't mean it's wrong, is that sense of you're either 100% or you're 100% against. Most people are more complicated than that. Blake says, we might absolutely support everybody's rights and freedoms, but we might have some questions that we don't understand and some things that people don't understand are where the heat has come in.

That said, he said, it is clear that conversation has to be respectful. The sheer hostility of trans people often encountered when they did not engage with the reason so many , retreated into no debate. But I don't think that this is true. You can, you can see the way that the, the, the, the trans advocates are really doing this, and you did not have right wing people breaking into protran lectures at universities.

And yet this is something you repeatedly see on the other side, even for fairly moderate positions in the anti-trans position. Mm-hmm. And, and this idea that, oh, it's a both sides issue, or, oh, it's a, no, it's not. It's that the left has this tendency now of over elevating, like the Isha versus Anna Valence, just to bring it back to that, because I find it to be.

So Anna Valence just lied about somebody multiple times using a major publication, trying to have her lose her livelihood and then faced a backlash for that. Didn't even get fired, you know? And has been going on this whole long pity parade. Kirsha, on the other hand was doxed now has to live in a secret bunker and is lost wait,

Simone Collins: really?

Like her identity was her field, and now, now

Malcolm Collins: she's living like off the grid. And the left side, they're the primary victim here because they do not see the rightest as a human. Th this is, they're, they, they're, they just labor her as Nazi, and therefore she's not a human. And the, and the best way that we have to fight against this is by not connecting ourselves to groups that could actually be called racist or Nazi.

So

Simone Collins: she didn't actually get out of this unscathed because I thought she came out okay.

Malcolm Collins: Well, no, now she's doing bigger in terms of followers, but she's still hiding. She still lost a sponsor. You know, she came out winning the public sentiment. But you know, she, she definitely is dealing with more consequences than Anna Valen is.

And yet Anna Valen has still trying to paint herself as the primary victim of this without any acknowledgement for what she did. And I, I, I think that, and, and she's being supported by her community and doing this despite anybody being able to look at the basic evidence in regards to this. And.

This, like, we won't debate the other side. We won't go into their areas. You're of course not gonna be able to convert people if you take that approach.

Hmm.

Which is why it's also important for us to always be willing to engage. Now one thing I will note when I'm saying like, we do need to not engage with the racist and the Nazis.

There is a huge difference between somebody the left calls a racist and a Nazi and a racist and a Nazi. Yeah. We went to NatCon with a lot of people who left this call. Like I remember Kevin Dolan. They're like, he's a racist and a Nazi. And I was like, in, in a homophobe. And I was like, how is he a homophobe?

And they're like, he's a Mormon. And I was like, wait, what? Like are we not allowed to be Mormon anymore? I was like, how, how is he a racist? And they're like, well, he's a Dee Nationalist. And I was like, that, that's just a belief that the Mormon should have their own country. That's like no different than calling a Zionist a racist.

Like, and consider Mormons used to basically have their own country. It is a reasonable concern or want. So it's important that you look like with, with, you know, mulch notebook, people will be like, oh, racist not. So I actually look at what he believes and it's, it's all well provocative. Definitely not in those categories of things.

And so I think we need to get good at differentiating the, anyone who's called a racist or a Nazi and the people who actually are racist and Nazis.

Simone Collins: Yeah, absolutely.

Malcolm Collins: Because of course we are called racist and Nazis all the time too.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And I mean, like, the people who are actually racist and Nazis let you know, it's, it's not subtle.

Yeah, it's not subtle. And I, I'd also, they're, they're clear and they're, they're proud, you know, they're, they're not hiding it. I think there's this perception, it's exactly like

Malcolm Collins: the, the CINA byte sex pe. Right? Like, they make it known. You would know the moment you look at one, oh, they're one of those people.

Mm-hmm. It's not like a, a secret. They're not like trying to keep their identity hidden. Okay. Yeah,

Simone Collins: exactly.

Malcolm Collins: I'd also note here when he is like, okay, we need to engage in respectful debate. But you know, if you go to this guy and you're like, what about the women in refugee shelters who are being raped by, sorry, are being raped by people who just self-identify as women?

You know, this is a phenomenon that we can see. Like, how are you gonna address that? You know, they're not gonna address it. He's just gonna argue it shouldn't be addressed. And it's not that big of a phenomenon. It's like, it doesn't matter if it's not that big of a phenomenon. The difference between not getting to live the gender identity you want as a refugee who has come to one of these countries and a woman being raped is astronomically different.

You know, a hundred people should have to live a gender identity that they, or not even live, just live in the men's camp. You can, you can do what you want, but just live in the men's camp to save just one, you know, underage kid from experiencing this.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, I guess they'd like to differ.

It'd be interesting to see these actual debates. Like how many, how many men should be? Na men should be you. They often just

Malcolm Collins: like, yeah, how many, how many grapes per identification? Like how, how, what's the,

Simone Collins: yeah. What is it worth? What is, what is the value?

Malcolm Collins: But the thing is, is they always try to redefine every case in which a grape happens is not a grape.

Yeah. And because I've seen this, they're like, it just never happens. It's a complete myth. And it's like, it's, it's, it's not a complete myth. Yeah. Like, even just near us, while this wasn't a grape, there was a trans kid who beat up another kid told the other girl this just a few miles from us in a Pennsylvania school that he was, had put her on a hit list.

She went to the administration Oh, yes. And said, do something about this. They're like, we can't, they're trans. And then she was beaten so bad, she had to be hospitalized. Mm-hmm. And the, the, the, the people are like, oh, well no, this is a problem. That, that was normalized. Right? Like, this is happening even in our backyard.

Simone Collins: Which in turn hurts the trans community. Yeah. The, the trans community as the whole, and also by association the LGBT community. Yeah. I can see why they have

Malcolm Collins: concern because I, I don't too frequently see like gay or lesbian people running up and like punching somebody at these events.

I frequently see trans people, especially ones who don't look like they're really trying to pass assaulting people.

Hmm.

And, and I, this is the thing, like it's this entire cast that is just normalized to I can do what I want. And the people we're fighting against aren't humans. I mean, this is what the punch a Nazi comes from because they, if they identify cure show as holding the most milk toast beliefs as a Nazi, and they would also hold punch a Nazi.

They're saying, I have the right to violate the consent o over 50% of Americans and British people by just punching them in the face because I disagree with them. Like, people should realize this is a problem if your movement has these people.

Yeah,

we might absolutely support everybody's rights and freedoms, but we might have some questions that we don't understand.

And some of the things that people don't understand are where the heat can come. No, you've gotta admit that some areas you're fighting for things are just a bad idea. Like you, you'd be like, oh, you just don't understand. Yeah. The left

Simone Collins: needs to adopt Trump's 90 10 issue thing.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: Because I think maybe that's, that's part of the problem.

It, it's one reason why the, the w right. Has done so well is this recognition of like, is this 50 50? Is this 80 20? Is this 90 10? And then really just moving forward based on those issues. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yet progressive activists, fatal flaw, the report argues is. They're further from mainstream public opinion on cultural issues than they realize they're the only group where a majority thinks that immigration should be as high or higher than it is now.

And that protecting people from hate speech matters more than defending free speech. A key rationale behind the no debate idea that the trans identities aren't up for discussion and the no platforming, they're also the group most likely to think. Social change sometimes requires breaking the law, whereas two thirds of Britain's disapprove of protestors blocking roads are gluing themselves to things.

Which by the way, I disapprove. We've in the past said if you're dealing with extreme cases where it's just clear the government isn't gonna handle something, breaking the law is eventually something you have to do. Like if your country is literally having a Nazi revolution, you need to go against it.

Like when my family literally turned against the Confederacy and formed like an independent region with like the free state of Jones that was a necessary thing to do. But the, the the, the minor sort of protest annoying people thing, that's not okay. This is just inconveniencing people so that you can feel better about yourself because it doesn't even work as we're gonna get to in a second here.

Trial stresses that being outliers doesn't invariably make progressive activists wrong. Perhaps they're just ahead of the curve as the suffragettes once were, but it has important tactical implications. His polling shows that progressive activists overestimate by a factor of two to three, how much others agree with their core beliefs from abolishing the monarchy to letting child change gender.

Consequently, they tend to invest too much time on persuasion, sorry. Consequently, they tend to invest too little time on persuasion, focusing instead on mobilizing the masses they wrongly believe are on board. If you're reaching out to people, then you're watering down. This is how trial describes the mindset.

And this is really bad, right? Like if you are not in the norm and you think you're in the norm and then you try to imperialistically or colonialistic impose your culture through force, through not debate, through not persuasion that's gonna really piss off the average person. This is how the left has lost so much ground so quickly,

Simone Collins: right?

Malcolm Collins: And it's why we in the riot have to be very aware of what is the normative belief, not what is the normative belief within X chat room that I'm in.

Simone Collins: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder to what extent the online world and the insularity of many of these online communities has contributed to this. Because a lot of the people who become extremists, even those who end up exploiting these situations, don't realize how extreme their positions are because within whatever online community they're in, yeah, it's totally normal.

And everyone's egging them on and and saying how, yeah, how can this not already be normal? This is totally what you deserve. Go and get it. So, yeah, that's something I hadn't really thought of before. People don't realize we're we're far more likely to be balkanized and out of touch with the mainstream today, which could lead to more abuse.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Protests can of course serve many legitimate purposes beyond changing minds. They can be about inspiring solidarity between activists, expressing high emotion, building resistance, or even starting a revolution. If you're starting a revolution, they should probably be shut down. Revolutions kill lots of people.

But is the charge leveled against woke that some of its protests turned potential supporters away from them? Fair. In an intriguing experiment that the not-for-profit public research initiative Persuasion uk, Dr. Steve Alker, showed respondents videos from five different climate related events just stop oil activists spraying paint over the new international building and throwing soup into the Vincent Van Gogh painting Insulate Britain's road blocking protests, the Extinction Rebellion's Oil refinery protest, as well as its more Carnivals 2019 protests involving parking a big pink boat at Oxford Surface Circus.

Our curse then asked respondents about their views on the climate crisis and compared their answers to those of a control group who were not shown the videos. After watching the soup throwing and Roadblocking videos, viewers became actively more hostile to protestors. Of course. Than, than non viewers suggesting these actions have triggered a backlash.

But intriguingly, viewers of the paint spraying at the News International and Pink Boat at Oxford Surface nudge towards the cause. Elkhart's conclusion is that protests need to understand vanilla not painting Well, I, I think that what we're really seeing here is one thing was meant to actively con inconvenience average people.

And the other things were like, I don't agree with the painting one, but the big boat thing, whatever, like a lighthearted protest is gonna get people excited about what you are doing. Especially if it's not inconveniencing people. But if your initial goal is, I'm gonna go inconvenience people like this latest Greta Thornberg like selfie boat like.

What was she thinking? Like she's going into a, an, an active war zone where there was a blockade before the, this, this particular conflict even broke out. I think it was blockade by Egypt. Yeah. The, the, the Israelis had to save her and then she lied about it and pretended like she was kidnapped as they shipped her back.

And any sort of average person is gonna look at this and be like, wow, you are like. Israel has a number of very uphill like public relations battles to win right now. But the left is seriously helping them. Individuals like Gretta Thornberg are seriously helping them because they care more about, well, I think it's not just they care more about how they are seen and building up their own career but they are so insulated from mainstream society.

They do not understand how your average person is gonna think about them. You know, pretending like they're doing an aid boat. Like there's not, that boat wasn't big enough for a real aid drop, right? Like you just wanted to be arrested and that, and you repeatedly do this and that costs tax dollars money.

Like you're just a parasite on the system.

Yeah.

You're not actively trying to contribute to changes. When you look at like us and we go out there and we go, the education system's a problem, so we build pia.io or the Collins Institute. To try to fix the education system. We don't go out there and protest schools.

We don't go out there and yell at school boards. We don't go out there and chastise teachers when I say, oh, you know, there's a problem with younger education. You know, I'd really like it. My kid had like a stuffed animal he could talk with that, we can go back to educational topics. We build whistling.ai so that they can interact with.

You know, and repeatedly when we have seen a problem, we strive to fix it. She doesn't do that. And what's really interesting is that heretic on, I met a lot of people who are working on climate change solutions that could easily be deployed in fixed climate issues. Some of this is like, seeding certain chemicals into the sky.

Some like deep sea stuff. And they have like minor risks, but de despite the minor

Simone Collins: risk, well they're, let's point out also like technically illegal, but this also like, they're technically illegal. Green pea has done stuff that is technically illegal for a long time. Why can't they do this evidence-based intervention stuff instead?

I, you know, it's much better than like harassing whaling boats.

Malcolm Collins: What it shows is that Greta Thornberg could do something, right? Like she could, yeah, no. If, if

Simone Collins: she wants to do something illegal, she should do something illegal that makes a difference.

Malcolm Collins: And she knew this wasn't gonna make a difference, make a difference that are illegal.

She just wouldn't do them because that would sort of ruin everything People would say like, oh, you're messing with the environment. Oh, you're trying something too radical. Oh, yeah, yeah. Because

Simone Collins: it is even within the pro environmentalist world, controversial, right?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. It it's very much like the shooting down the knuckle power plants in Germany, even though they only had Russian oil.

Mm-hmm. So much of the environmentalist movement is pathetic in its nature. It doesn't actually care about fitting the problem, fixing the problems. And if you're talking about the major boards, they could even be threatened about some of these solutions.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Anyway, love you to DeSimone. I have really enjoyed talking with you.

Same. I'm probably not gonna eat today 'cause I'm feeling so sick. But

Simone Collins: it's for the best. I mean, on the days when I, I did feel nauseous. It just came right back up after I ate it, so, all right. Well, if you change your mind, I'll bring food to your room. I can bring you, I can make you a smoothie. I can make you another grilled cheese sandwich.

Malcolm Collins: Really simple like mac and cheese.

Simone Collins: Ramen. Do you want mac and cheese?

Malcolm Collins: Mac and cheese? Or maybe a pizza sliced. No.

Simone Collins: One slice of pizza.

Malcolm Collins: I think mac and cheese is gonna be easier on me 'cause I can eat it like one little bite at a time.

Simone Collins: Okay. I will make you mac and cheese then. Yeah. Thank

Malcolm Collins: you so much. Love you.

Simone Collins: I love you too.

Malcolm Collins: Today's episode's now at eight of 10, not 10 of 10 anymore.

Simone Collins: Do you think it's 'cause I went in and responded to comments?

Malcolm Collins: I think it is.

Simone Collins: Simone made a difference. Let me move myself to the right side. You know what I think I'm gonna do this weekend? I'm gonna go tro wife, gonna make the sourdough starter.

It's warm enough where if I do it and leave it in the sunroom and just keep feeding it there. It'll stay warm enough.

Malcolm Collins: I love it. You're amazing sourdough

Simone Collins: because your mom had purchased, you know, she had decided during the pandemic she was gonna make sourdough and she got like all the accessories for it and then fobbed it off on us.

'cause she never made any. This is Elle. Yeah, I know. And so I have the things and it was really nice of her to give them to us and I'm like, let's do it. We're gonna name it our local sourdough starter. I don't know. What do you want? Do you have any candidates for names?

Malcolm Collins: I, I wanna make it something like biohazard E

Simone Collins: Oh, ooh.

Like Project

Malcolm Collins: 65

Simone Collins: or 12th Monkey or that's already

Malcolm Collins: the name of like a brand.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Oh yeah. Project 60. Yeah. Project 65 is good. I like that. Which you like project 65 bread. Yeah, I like it. Okay. And

Malcolm Collins: you can then sell it on our Patreon to people.

Simone Collins: Oh my God. Selling our sourdough starter. Yeah, we're thinking about starting a Patreon and kind of like doing, you could either create one if people wanna check it out.

I haven't published it yet. It's not live yet. You'll, before

Malcolm Collins: this goes live.

Simone Collins: Okay. Yeah, we, we have to work out some, some little details and you'll just edit the content that I drafted, but I figure. We have enough additional stuff that we can offer to people. Why? Why not? If they want to. It's good way.

Yeah. I mean, it's hard for us

Malcolm Collins: because we really ran on the philosophy of there's nothing I wanna restrict my viewers' access to. Right. Their financial situation. Mm-hmm. So, but we're also

Simone Collins: reaching a point where we can only communicate directly with so many people too.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. That's

Simone Collins: the tough thing. Like I think when it gets to a point where we can't do it for everyone.

It makes sense to prioritize people who support the channel more. That sounds terrible. Whatever. Also, people who are cool on their own, but whatever. I don't know. I'm excited for it. I.

Malcolm Collins: We'll get started here. Let's do it.