AI: Risks, Tools, and Human-in-the-Loop

In this episode, Lindsay Wilson reflects on her evolution as an artist… from sketching playful portraits at 7 to the defining moments when constructive feedback reshaped her career path.

She discusses her role at Ink Factory, hints at upcoming projects, and offers thoughtful perspectives on the intersection of AI and visual art.

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Running Order

• Intro
• Welcome
• Who is Lindsay Wilson
• Origin Story
• Lindsay's current work
• Sponsor: Concepts
• Tips
• Tools
• Where to find Lindsay
• Outro

Links

Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast.

• Ink Factory Studio Website
• Ink Factory Studio on Intagram
• Ink Factory Studio on LinkedIn
• Lindsay on LinkedIn
• Ink Factory Studio on TikTok
• Ink Factory Studio on Facebook
• Ink Factory Studio Chicago Office

Tools

Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast.

• Spiral bound sketchbook
• Sketching pencil
• Correction tape

Tips

1. Find a community that's right for you, whatever your practice, and lean into it. Find feedback that could help you or give a direction on something that you could improve or work on, or even practice.
2. Look for avenues to practice, or within the community.
3. Warming up and giving yourself time to get prepared in that space whether you are sitting, standing, on a long day, or on a short day.

Credits

• Producer: Alec Pulianas
• Shownotes and transcripts: Esther Odoro
• Theme music: Jon Schiedermayer

Subscribe to the Sketchnote Army Podcast

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Support the Podcast

To support the creation, production, and hosting of the Sketchnote Army Podcast, buy one of Mike Rohde’s bestselling books. Use code ROHDE40 at Peachpit.com for 40% off!

Episode Transcript

Mike Rohde: Hey everybody, it's Mike, and I'm here with Lindsay Wilson. Lindsay, welcome to the show.

Lindsay Wilson: Hello. I'm so excited to be here. Thank you for having me.

MR: It's great to have you. I've been wanting to—the problem with having a show like this is the longer that I do the show, the more people I want to get on the show, and it's like impossible to get everybody all at once, so you just have to wait your turn, I guess. But [crosstalk 00:20].

LW: Understood. Amazing, amazing. Happy to be here. And as we talked about in the preamble, have been following all the great work that you have been doing across the globe. I know you're going to the UK soon.

MR: Yeah.

LW: And, you know, just excited to be here and get to share a little part of my story.

MR: That's great. Well, let's go ahead and get that started. Tell us a little bit about who you are, what you do, and then jump right into your origin story. Everybody's used to it now. The listeners know the origin story's coming.

LW: Okay. Jump right in. Excellent. Well, I am Lindsey Wilson. I am one of the co-founders of Ink Factory. Some of you may know me as my—before I got married, Lindsay Rofe, but I go by Lindsay Wilson in a professional capacity. And as I said, one of the co-founders of Ink Factory, a visual note-taking firm located here in Chicago. Just about an hour—what would we be south, southwest, or Southeast of you in Milwaukee?

MR: Yeah. Yeah.

LW: But my origin story, woo hoo. I have listened to some of your podcasts, and I was like, how far back do we go here? And I'll just start at the beginning.

MR: Yeah. Cool.

LW: I was lucky enough to have parents in the military, and I was born in Germany, Heidelberg, Germany. And I share that with someone else that you've interviewed, Brandy Agerbeck. We were both born in Heidelberg, but soon transitioned to grow up in Texas, believe it or not, even though I consider myself to be a mid-Westerner, through and through, I have lived in Chicago longer than I have in Texas. But I grew up in Fort Worth, Dallas-Fort Worth area. And you know humble beginnings, I would say.

And I know lots of people talked about if they were creative at a young age, and I have to jump in and say, yes, I love to draw. I feel that I came from some talented people. My father, although never practiced art, is very, very talented, as was my grandfather. So I get it through those genetics. But I was also encouraged to, and I know that maybe other people's experiences growing up didn't have maybe that much encouragement, but I was good at it. I was encouraged to do it, and it felt like I just followed that path.

I'm sure I wanted to be a veterinarian at some point, maybe an astronaut, but when it came time to decide a major, I did go to study art at university. And I think one thing, when I was thinking about this story and what might be helpful to share, I wanted to share two poignant crossroads that I had in my journey to where I am now, and I feel like without those two moments, my path would be completely different.

And as someone who starts out at university, we think everything is possible. And I had big ideas about what I wanted to be and really honed in on graphic design. And so, I went to a special university, Texas Christian University, that had an amazing graphic design program that you actually had to test into. So I had to take a whole semester where I had to prove myself worthy for this program. And fell in love with it. Absolutely fell in love with graphic design, spending so much time understanding typography, studying it.

We didn't get into the actual technicality as far as like the programs and the technology that was available in 1998. We did everything by hand, and I loved it. I ate it up. I loved the whole process of working with my hands and laying out things, and again, studying all the key elements of typography. I feel like that shows up sometimes in my work.

So when I talk about this poignant moment, I was on a trajectory. I was, you know gonna graduate, thought, you know, I'd already done an internship, I'd done all the right things, but my professor came to me in my senior year saying, "Lindsay, I think we need to talk about some things." And I'm like, let's talk. What do we wanna talk about? Thinking about, it's my senior show, or stuff like that. And he said, "You know, I think you're struggling." And, you know, of course, you know, that took a more serious tone.

And my professor really sat me down and said, "You know, what I'm seeing with you is that you, albeit you're doing what's being asked, where I feel that your execution isn't where the other students are. However, your storytelling and your ability to define the purpose and again, the story of everyone else's work and the critiques," he's like, "You land the message like the other students are not, but their execution is better." So we had this whole conversation, and he basically was telling me, "I don't wanna let you continue down this path because I don't think it would be fruitful for you."

And of course, I'm looking at him, you know, wind knocked completely out of my sails and thinking, well, what am I supposed to do now? I'm an artist. I'm a graphic designer. This is what I've spent the last four years doing. And we had a hard conversation. And, you know, he said, "I think I actually need to walk you across the building to our speech communication department." And what? What? I don't even know what you're talking about.

So the reason I bring that up is because this person thought enough of me to tell me the truth and to tell me that this wasn't where, you know, he saw a trajectory for me, and how about this? And, you know, I did what every senior college student was due. I cried for at least two days. And then I said, you know what? I'm gonna dig in. And I ended up with a degree in speech communication and a minor in graphic design because I had essentially finished the program.

And that was a moment in my life that, again, I could have packed up. I could have, you know, done so many different things, or I could have—he gave me the option 1to go back and remediate some of the classes, and that did not feel right 'cause, you know, I felt that my passion had been kind of tampered, but that gave me so much insight into another muscle that I have. And that is, again, what I didn't even know was possible, and it is that storytelling. So I learned to have a voice. I learned to be able to really ask questions and understand some of those nuances and how humans communicate. And I think it primed me perfectly for what I do. Although we aren't there yet, 'cause I didn't even know I would get there.

So we continue on. I've graduated, I made the decision that maybe I would go into advertising. And what felt right for me was Chicago. So I packed up, moved to Chicago, didn't have a job, but I had purpose, and I had gumption. And I showed up and thought, okay so this is fast forward 2003 you know, that I could just land in Chicago and find a job. Well, thankfully, somebody pointed me in a direction that was like, "Lindsay, if you don't find anything, this avenue might just be perfect for you."

And I don't wanna be a broken record 'cause I know that you've talked to other people before, but I come from the MG Taylor model. So I landed as a knowledge worker with Cap Gemini Ernst & Young back in those days for people like Kelvy, Christopher Fuller, Brandy Agerbeck, Alphachimp, both Peter and Diane. These were all people that they were my mentors, some of them I never met. I only heard their names and saw their work.

But essentially, I ended up becoming this knowledge worker in this very collaborative, very fast-paced business environment that I wasn't prepared for, but I got the indoctrination of a lifetime, and I could not be more grateful for it. To all the people that shared their knowledge, shared their time, and training. And for Matt and Gail to set up the system, I learned on the job. And I didn't start scribing, or I was forced politely to get up to the wall.

And in the ASC, the accelerated solutions environment, all of our work was big. We were on large curved whiteboard walls. The intent was that our work was meant to be seen by all, to be able to be referenced and viewed. So, real-time time it wasn't necessarily meant to be pretty, it was meant to be an actual capture of the conversation. And so, that is where I got my start. And like I said, being forced up there and then realizing that I had pins in my hand, whiteboard markers, and that if I moved, if I physically moved, people in the room could see what I drew. And I was like, woo, this is intense. But somehow through practice and a lot of encouragement, you know, practiced that craft and got better.

The second poignant moment was I spent 11 years with Cap Gemini Ernst & Young. They even got rid of the Ernst & Young, and it was just Cap Gemini and stayed with them, but also contracted with a lot of the other big consultative firms that were harnessing this methodology with their clients, this visual scribing methodology, [coughs] excuse me.

And it was at the 11th year where I had really maxed out all the levels. I knew everything. I was a process facilitator, which means I was helping manage these events. And I was told by two of the consultants that I had reached my limit and that there was no further progression for me. And that's what another hard-to-hear thing when this is something that you lived, eat, and breathed, and it was also your income. And they didn't owe me anything because I was a contractor, but it was a hard message to receive. And the fact that I felt I had learned purposely to help embellish the work that they did and help deliver. And then, you know, just was politely told that this is what they had to offer.

And thankfully, my two business partners, who also were knowledge workers, and that is Dusty Folwarczny and Ryan Robinson, were also knowledge workers and very talented scribes. We just started a conversation, and they had heard a similar message. And it was at that point that we just said, you know what? I think we could do this outside. I think we could start something together. And we started having conversations.

And Mike, you mentioned something about this podcast being accidental or just those accidental meetings that you have. I thought I was starting a club with Ryan and Dusty. I didn't think I was starting a business. And they tell me that I'm an idiot every time I say that. I'm like, guys, you really don't know what was on my mind. I thought we were just starting a fun club where we could, you know, share work with one another or stuff like that.

But that is where we get to Ink Factory. So this would be 2011. And we, Steve and Ryan, and I were, again, just having conversations in the background. And there were others, talented scribes that had gone on to do many other things, do this professionally on their own, start their own businesses, and, you know, so we had an inference that it was possible, but, you know, we had to make our own way.

And so, that's where we decided to start Ink Factory. And it was just the three of us. And I don't know that we had the intentions that we do now and or did we dream that the trajectory would take us here? But I'm so grateful that we have just been along for the ride, and we have said yes to a lot of things. And we've also admitted when we don't have the information and chose to seek it out.

So when I think about how young Lindsay drawing you know, silly portraits when she was seven, to where I am now, again, I'm grateful for those two moments where people gave me the truth so that I could make decisions that were right for me, because otherwise, I don't know where I'd be right now, and would I be happy?

MR: That's a great story. I think the questions that come up for me is number one, if you're listening and you hear something or you feel something for someone, it's really important that you be honest with them in a kind way, and let them know the truth, right? Because it's so easy to just kind of roll by and not give the truth. I know it's challenging for me. And it's important to remember that, you know, they need your honest truth because, like, what would happen if say the instructor in the university didn't tell you that you probably would've become a production designer, maybe, right?

LW: Yeah. yeah.

MR: And doing the work—so I came up as a print graphic designer, did everything the old way, you know, marking up boards, and T-squares and all that kind of stuff, right?

LW: Yes.

MR: So I know that world, and I saw where it went to, right? You know, that where it went is everybody that made boards manually within a couple years didn't have a job anymore because they were switching over to Macintosh computers, and you know, page layout tools and Photoshop and Illustrator. And if you didn't make that transition, you probably had limited options. So I think it's so important that someone told you the truth when the truth needed to be told. Like, that's really great.

And then the other thing I guess I would say is in the second one, it would be interesting to dive more into what that looked like, that you had maxed out what you could do at Cap Gemini, and that that encouraged you to start something new. I suspect that there were other people behind you, and maybe the intention was, is to make room for those coming up behind, but it does sound like a pretty interesting opportunity where you actually built a business out of the work that you did there, and that the opportunity that you had other people there with you was pretty convenient and probably critical that you would make that choice.

So I think it's really important if you're listening and you heard Lindsay's story, is that if you have something that's in your gut that you feel like you need to tell someone, you should do that. Obviously, find a nice way to do that. It sounds like at least maybe one of the two were gentle in the way they told you these things. Maybe the second one maybe wasn't, and I think it's really important that you tell people the truth. I had to do that with a friend who was gonna get married, and I had concerns about his choice of person, and I had to sit down and tell him that. And I said, "I will still go through with the wedding and be your best man and all that, but I have concerns about what I see."

LW: Right.

MR: Unfortunately, in the long run, it didn't last, and he's now happily married to someone else, but I felt like I had to say something as his best man. Like, I can't let that slide, right? So if there's any lesson you take away from this, it's be honest with the people that you're work with and that you spend time with.

LW: Absolutely. And I think the counter to that is if you are the receiver of information like that, yes, it can, as I said, knock the wind out of your sails and change, you know, the steps that you have put in place or that you saw in place. And, you know, again, I can talk about it now 'cause hindsight it's 2020.

MR: Yeah.

LW: In the moment, both of those—

MR: Weren't very nice.

LW: -those cross sections in my life, it took me a moment to recenter, regroup, and take action. But those are choices that we make. So I definitely think, yes, if there's something that you could share with somebody, it helps to be honest, but also take a moment if someone's being honest with you, and receive that.

MR: Right. And I think, you know, the other thing too is like, I think about it, I don't know your whole situation, but like, in some ways, coming to you when you were a senior, I suspect that person probably should have told you when you were a junior. Now, I don't know the program or all that stuff.

LW: Yeah.

MR: Maybe you weren't ready to hear it then. You know, like, maybe he or she hoped that you would, oh, you know, it's junior year, they're gonna figure it out in their senior year, right?

LW: Yes.

MR: And then when it became clear, like, okay, I just see this being a problem and that her life is going to be problematic. Like, I gotta stop this before she gets stuck in this path, right? So, I mean, you know, that's always a balancing point of when. I mean, probably, it's not easy anyway you go, but I think, you know, it sounded like you eventually, after the shock of it, I mean, you telling me the story, I was being shocked, like, oh man, I can't imagine what that would feel like, right?

So I could feel it even as being told a story that once you get past the shock of it, like the reality, there were probably things that he's said that probably resonated with you after you got over the shock of it. Like, you know, he's got a point, and, you know, actually, I do like the storytelling part. I mean, the other interesting tidbit I thought of knowing the creative field is like, you probably would've made a really good creative director or an art director, right?

LW: That's what he said.

MR: Yes.

LW: That's what he said. No, and those are all fair points. You know, I think I wish he would've told me earlier, but I think the time in which he told me was when we started using the technology, and that's where I definitely struggled.

MR: Okay.

LW: I'm very good with my hands. It's when it came to understanding the programs and being able to do that. That's where, again, the voice and the muscle memory of my hands really helped. But yeah, I appreciate both of those. And again, it took me a long time to even be able to share these two stories because I took those as reflections of a deficit, versus, you know, what these people actually—you know, believe it or not, I should go find them and thank them. I haven't because again, those were hard conversations, but as I've evolved as a human, I am grateful that I had those. So if you have those situations in your life, again, handle it with grace if you're given the feedback and grace, if you're receiving it.

MR: Yeah, that's good.

LW: Yeah.

MR: That's a good thing to remember.

LW: Absolutely.

MR: And I think it's really interesting too that you point out those two pivot points in your life, like, had you not had those things happen, and they were typical in the moment, you wouldn't be where you are now, right? Number one, you might be a graphic designer struggling to find work right now. I don't know.

LW: Yeah.

MR: I mean, maybe you would've found it after all. Anyway, I mean, it kind of seems like you're pretty tenacious once you got your teeth into something. So you would've found something, right? I think I get that sense.

LW: Yeah.

MR: And then I think the other opportunity is having been told in the second instance, and having Dusty and Ryan both kind of feeling the same vibe, and the fact that you were there together, that you could do it as a threesome and go together, you had support network, right? To do it solo is tough. I know Brandy Agerbeck did it solo. She probably took the tough way, or Kelvy, or you know, whoever else, maybe had to go solo. It's pretty tough that way. So, it actually probably in a great sense, like having the three of you do it together probably was a blessing that you couldn't have imagined in the moment, right?

LW: No, not at all. And again, all of this origin story is a hundred percent—right now, is me looking backwards in hindsight, and I can see some of those serendipitous moments, you know, those struggles, et cetera. But I'm glad you brought up Ryan and Dusty at that time because in a business, we are very unique. We are a threesome, and that threesome has been a huge benefit to the fact that we have played to our skills, our innate skillset in forming the company and growing it to where it is today and leaning into those 'cause Ryan, Dusty and I, although we practice the same craft, we are three very, very unique individuals that bring unique skill sets that help the company grow.

MR: Yeah, that would be a strength, I would think, having those three different perspectives and three different skill sets, makes you stronger. And that would be kind of what I was alluding to, versus an independent individual, is you have these skills that you're really good at and stuff, I don't like the accounting. I mean, you could hire a lot of that thing out, right? But like there's, you know, a business sense that someone might have might be a big advantage, or in your case, the ability to tell the story and to weave it all together could be a really important skill to convince the client, like, hey, what we've done for you is actually what you asked for, and here's how we can apply it. Because often the customers themselves don't know what they want or how it can apply, right? So you have to guide them, especially the first time through.

LW: Yes, yes. Right. A hundred percent. And, you know, being in a partnership versus solo, I can definitely echo those moments where, you know, certain things, like I've heard from a lot of practitioners, practitioner imposter syndrome, feeling legitimate, you know, just being able to feel credible in a space that sometimes hasn't been a legitimate place for artists to show up. You know, we have been able to bounce ideas off of each other, but also, you know, scaffold that support of like, no, this is right, you know. Or client B is being what client B wants to be and isn't listening. And so, having that partnership has been really great along the way.

MR: Well, and I understand, you know, you started with three of you, but I suspect now that you're a bigger business, you have staff that work with you, you're guiding and leading them. So talk about what is Ink Factory look like now compared to those early days of the three Amigos.

LW: Great question. Yes, the three crazy Amigos. So, yeah, so we started in 2011. October 2011. Will be 14 this year in October—

MR: Congrats.

LW: -when I think this airs. So hello, future folks. Ink Factory has grown steadily and intently. So when we took on our first employee team member it was done with what we hoped was a lot of intent around being able to craft a company that again, gives legitimacy to a skillset that sometimes can be—you know, everyone's gonna have their opinion, and we have to combat that a lot with our clients about is what value does this bring? And, you know, just artists in general showing up in a business capacity. So how can we create a company that when we bring somebody on, we aren't, oh crap, a couple weeks later, having to let that person go.

So as a business owner, we wanted to make sure that we were to designing to have staying power and scalability. So right now, currently we have 16 full-time employees. Ten of those are artists. All artists that we have trained. None of our team has come from any of—I know that there's probably many schools, but two in the U.S., as far as the MG Taylor model and those that got trained from The Grove, David Sibbet's, and then anywhere in between. But all of these team members have found us in some capacity of wanting to draw, and we have trained them and how we practice visual note taking.

The others are administrative and sales folks, and without them, Ink Factory would cease to exist. So each team member plays an enormous role on making sure that we show up on social media that we're showing up where we need to, and that we're also having a seamless experience with our clients because again, they do pay the bills.
And really, with this acquisition of talent, we're also trying to push the envelope of what is next. And I can't answer that right now 'cause the client ultimately will help us prove that. But you know, I've heard others mention, you know, how did we pivot in COVID, and you know, we used to be a hundred percent, "We have to be in the room." You know, "No, you need to fly us out to wherever." And then COVID chain changed all of that and gave us permission, to be quite honest, to explore the digital side, 'cause we were doing digital before, but it was not a common request.

So now we're able to show up for a one-hour meeting, you know, somewhere in a different time zone. So it just begs the question, what's next? What is possible? And you know, I am always and Dusty as well, Dusty and Ryan are both our big thinkers. I'm the operations lady. I'm the one handling the money, making sure you know, we're requisite with all the things that we need to be where I lean on Dusty and Ryan to be the big thinkers

But AI is bringing up all sorts of questions on how this field continues. And while I think there is right to be—I try not to lead with fear. Fear sometimes is my guiding emotion is to be aware, not to fear it, but to be aware of where it's going and how we can do it. And my team right now is leaning into understanding how we can use those tools, and dare I say, doing a little bit of training ourselves of the AI to see where it can go.

MR: Yeah. I mean, that's oddly enough, the last two years since ChatGPT hit the mainstream, really, almost every discussion seems to touch on AI eventually. One of the other ones in this series for this season with Dan Rome, who's kind of leaning into it and trying to find ways that he can use it as a tool. I think, you know, there's all different feelings all over the place, right?

LW: Mm-hmm.

MR: Like you said, if you lead with fear, it's like, "It's gonna take my job," and, you know, to some degree, it's going to do some of the work that we maybe used to do. I mean, that's just the reality, right?

LW: Yep.

MR: But I always think too, that—and the reason I say this is because I've worked with technology since it first entered the market, and I see it in like desktop publishing, which we sort of hinted at.

LW: Yeah.

MR: Came up in a similar timeframe. And, you know, I've seen the great things about desktop publishing, and then I switched into web design, and I've seen great things there, and other technological revolutions always seem to promise more than they can deliver.

LW: True.

MR: And they, you know, usually have the thing that's promised, and then the thing that's the reality is somewhere back over here, right?

LW: Yeah.

MR: You know, it's never as bad as you said it thought it would be, but it's never as good either. It finds sort of an equilibrium somewhere in the middle.

LW: Exactly.

MR: And so, I suspect maybe we enter a place where, yeah, you know, you can go on ChatGPT and make a Studio Ghibli version of some icon or some images. But can it hold in its mind a whole three-hour meeting broken up by breaks, look at the consistency outside of just notetaking text and make visual sense of all that information, where a human is sort of built to operate storytelling space, both as a receiver and to hear the stories, right. Hearing is really important to the work we do, and then visualize it, right, to connect the things together and see the connections, which maybe there's a place for AI to help catch the details, and then you just review and refine, maybe, I don't know exactly.

And that's ultimately the discussion is always, we don't know, but it's interesting to see what it can offer. And just my experiences, you know, the technology is always gonna need like fiddling and maintenance. And it's never gonna exactly—you can't just turn it loose and let it do stuff and trust it totally. At least not yet. I mean, hallucinations are still in there, and mistakes are still in there. I've experienced, you know, plenty of them in my experience. So there still does need to be somebody, even if you're using these tools, kind of overseeing it as an art director, as I mentioned earlier, like managing and making sure things make sense, and then aligning it to the expectations, so.

LW: Absolutely. I think you get as visual note takers, we get to be a part of a lot of those conversations that are happening now. Like you said, I don't think I've been in a meeting yet, or in the last six months, maybe a year, that hasn't somehow mentioned AI. And I think the theme that I keep hearing from those that are smarter than me keep talking about the human in the loop. You know, let's AI do what it can do to help us, but there will always be a human in the loop.

And Mike, you brought up about the changes in desktop publishing. And yes, you and I probably did so many things by hand that were like a computer to do it, but you have to know how to do that stuff by hand before you can really get the computer to do that for you. So I still think there's value in slowing down before you get to using AI or slowing down before you get to the computer and making sure that you're trying everything in what I hope is a very free environment, no critique of just putting marks on a piece of paper versus going straight to an iPad where—

MR: Finished. Yeah.

LW: -yeah, you can put that line, and you might spend eight hours putting that same line, but had you been a little freer, I think it helps with the actual, the actual work and the practice of being visual.

MR: I think that's really important. And I did a post about a year ago, and I talked about don't give away the thing that makes you special to the robots. I call them AI robots, right?

LW: Yeah.

MR: Because I think my concern, and some of the studies that are starting to come out now with people who use it for writing, is the people that use it for writing and rely on it start to have less ability to process and be critical about information.

LW: Use this muscle. Yeah.

MR: Yeah. And the same thing is like, if you have a process where you deliver stuff, there's places where maybe it helps you. Maybe it's in pre-research, or maybe it's taking, documenting the text while you're working, and then you can review and say, oh, I missed that little bit, I'll add that, right? It could be that, but like, if you give away whole parts of your process to some tool, which you don't control that you know, suddenly, you know, OpenAI decides we don't think that feature's important anymore, and that your whole process now depends on that. That's a problem.

LW: It is.

MR: And you know, the other thing would be, you know, if you're even considering using tools like this, map out your process, understand how it works, and selectively use it in places where, you know, if let's say OpenAI just changes a feature that if that disappeared, you could now step back in and do a human part of that, or find another way to solve that problem, right. So it's really like process ownership and then being aware of like where you allow these automated tools to fit in so that something doesn't cripple you, right? Because—

LW: Exactly.

MR: Yeah. And I—

LW: Go ahead.

MR: And you, the other point that I liked was knowing how it works. And I think about this when the digital design era came, you know, I used to build boards and use these ink pens, and I would draw the crop marks, and we had blue line pencils, and I stuck wax on pa—you know, we did it all manually, and we achieved a result.

LW: Yeah.

MR: But what I think, you know, as cool as it was, it was also very limiting, right?

LW: Sure.

MR: There were certain things you just could not do, or it was so difficult that the time you have, you would make that decision. Like, okay, I could do that, but like, do I wanna spend the time? Is it worth that effect? You would make those decisions.

LW: Sure.

MR: Desktop publishing made those possible, but now the other problem was you could now do stuff that you shouldn't do. It was possible, but it would be a disaster on press because, you know, by experience, you know that that's never gonna work because these colors are gonna mush together and turn to green or whatever.

LW: Yeah.

MR: The thing was right, you had to kind of know the basics and understanding, just 'cause you can do it doesn't necessarily mean that you should do it, right? That kind of a thing.

LW: Right.

MR: So.

LW: Yeah, and I think whether that's a purist thought process or not, I still think it comes down to yeah, understanding what is possible and knowing that craft, and then you can bring in technology to help you. And so, I guess coming from the background that we did, I see things differently where, you know, I have three generations on my team, Gen X right here, and we've got millennial, and Gen Z, and I can see how they instantly go straight to technology to do things where I'm grabbing my handy dandy sketchbook and using paper and pencil before I ever go into you know, getting on the computer and designing.

MR: Yeah, exactly. I think there's sort of, in some ways an attraction too to this that I've noticed that like everything for Gen Z is so digital. Like there's kind of an attraction. I see it in my son and my nephew's fascination in record albums, Polaroid cameras, like shooting film, like these kinds of things that you can easily do them digitally, and there's some advantages, but there's sort of an interest in the process, in the vibes of it, I guess. So that's interesting. And, you know, part of what I like to do is provide these drawing skills, and I you guys do this too to people so that they have the ability to visualize their thinking, right?

LW: Mm-hmm.

MR: And I think further, like, as you know, I know that you guys teach visual, you know, note-taking basics. I do the similar stuff. There's a bunch of people that do it. I honestly believe that it actually makes our profession more, I don't know, how would you describe this? It gives a reality check. So if a client learns how to do visual note-taking, and they can do it to a basic degree that fits their needs. They will also realize, holy cow, that is hard, hard work, and now I know why I hire Lindsay and her team because they are really good at it. You know, it's sort of like the Nailed It show, right? Where you try to like replicate a cake by someone and you realize how hard it is, and you appreciate the skill level of those other people that produce those things, right? Yeah. It's kind of cool.

LW: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you mentioned teaching, and yes, we have dipped our toe in that water. And, you know, anyone who's interested in a workshop—you know, I know we have other visual practitioners that want to learn it, but a lot of the people that reach out, they have a day job.

MR: Yes.

LW: And, you know, so I often say to them, I'm like, you know, our approach to this is we're not trying to train you to get paid to do this. I mean, that is a path, but it's more to give you skills and confidence to capture information differently. And, you know, if you're a kinesthetic learner or, if you're a visual learner and have multiple disciplines, just being able to take notes for yourself, not for anybody else to see. I love lots of sketchnoting, it just really helps give you another tool in your tool belt, but not to be your full-time job.

MR: Right. I think that's great.

LW: Although I feel like some people that try it and like it, they're then like, do I want to be this other person that I'm doing right now?

MR: Yeah. That might be an option. I mean, that might be the way to find your next talent. Right, and you never know.

LW: Exactly. No, true.

MR: Interesting.

LW: True, true, true.

MR: Interesting. Well, I love this discussion. I think, you know, it's an ongoing discussion. It's not been settled, and we have to figure out where, as a community and as a profession, how we're gonna deal with it. And it may change.

LW: It's true. Yeah.

MR: Right. So we can't even—as much as we wanna settle it, it's probably not going to be for a while.

LW: Yeah.

MR: But I like your idea of not leading with fear and leading with openness and curiosity, and like, how could this interesting tool be helpful, and what parts do I wanna keep under my control? Because I feel like what I provide that thing can't do, right. And that makes you unique. I think that's really important to thing to think about as a visual person.

LW: I mean, yeah. I like it.

MR: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

LW: Yeah.

MR: Moving away from AI as a tool, what are some of the tools that you just find yourself always using all the time? What do you come back to? Are there like, stuff you keep in your purse, in your backpack, in your pocket that you just love? That can include pens, pencils, books, spur, whatever you like.

LW: D, all of the above. If you saw the bag or the bags that I bring to events, you'll be like this is overkill. And I'm like, I am a belt-and-suspenders type of person. My whole team jokes they're like, "What the heck are suspenders?" And I'm like, shut up. You're too young. But I would say I love a sketchbook. I know that people have different opinions, but I prefer a spiral-bound because I like to work multiple different ways, and I feel that my fat figures and stuff get in the way. But when I think about a sketchbook, I really am thinking about the actual paper. You know, the weight of the paper that I'm using so to make sure that it doesn't bleed. This is a sketchbook that we designed for workshops.

MR: Yeah, it's a cool one.

LW: And, you know, we did a lot of research to find out, you know, like what paperweight was gonna be the best for some of those great pens that we use. I can't name them all. But also, to think about lined versus unlined. We even have some gray scale that has grids on it, just because, again, sometimes having a little grid helps, you know, your handwriting be a little straight, but I always go to paper first. When I think about maybe other tools, I am a huge fan of a pencil. I'm a gestural drawer by nature. And so, if that pencil gives me permission to put marks, that if I go straight to a pen, any kind of pen feels more permanent. So I'm always drawing with a pencil.

And I think my favorite thing when people come up to me on events and they see me drawing with pencil, and they're like, "Oh, oh, you trace that." And I'm just looking at them, and I'm like, how do you think these marks got on this board? Like, just 'cause it's a pencil, you know? And I love sometimes demystifying the drawing process for people 'cause they're like, "Oh, you're doing it in pencil. You've traced it." And I'm just like, came from this hand. But anyways, I love a flare. I love a pencil.

MR: Oh, yeah.

LW: And then I think my go-to tool that I don't talk about enough, and don't get too excited. I have dyslexia, and I have done my best to overcome it for years. But being able to have some correction tape—

MR: White out tape? Yeah.

LW: I'll have it in my pocket. I have it in my bag. I have backups to this because, you know, I'm doing—well, as we do this craft, we're doing so many things at once, spelling sometimes goes out the window. And it keeps me honest and make sure that the client's not upset. So having some correction tape or just the ability to know that I can undo something. Now, have I drawn something really big? That's a lot of correction tape. But yeah, I would say those are my go-to tools.

MR: Interesting. And, you know, the correction tape, I know what that is because we're old GChen X.

LW: Yes.

MR: But like, you know, Gen Z, like, "What the heck is that thing you got?" You know, you guys gotta demonstrate it.

LW: Exactly.

MR: But it's 'cause they've never had to type a paper with a typewriter or an electric typewriter or a printer and then have to fix something, right?

LW: We used to have to wait for it to dry, you know.

MR: Yeah.

LW: Now, we don't even have to do that, but yeah. No, my team definitely leans into having the ability 'cause again, we're often working analog, markers to a physical board.

MR: Yeah, that's pretty cool. I've forgotten about correction tape. I used to use white out in the little bottle, but it'd always give gloopy. You know, it'd get gloopy on the brush. You'd have to clean the brush off.

LW: I mean, it smells good, you know.

MR: Yeah. Well, and you had to be careful, certain markers would kind of taint it and it would turn like gray. And then if you put it in, now you basically have gray out, right?

LW: It's like, should we be white? Maybe gray should be the back of the board. No, I hear you. Yeah.

MR: Yeah. Exactly. So, well, that's pretty cool. Really simple tools. I love it. And they're easy to get any place. Right.

LW: Exactly.

MR: And I've seen your notebook. It looks really cool. I love the spiral and the style of it, and the size of it is great. And like you said, you know, the paper is so important. It sounds it's great that you've done research and obviously got just the right kind of paper that makes it work. So I'm glad to hear that.

LW: Yeah.

MR: Where can people pick up that notebook? Is that available at the Ink Factory website in the shop?

LW: You know what, I don't think it's currently available because we've believe—thank you for asking. We've actually put some pause on our Think Like Ink, just because we're doing some other things behind the scenes.

MR: Yeah. Okay.

LW: I can't really talk about it just yet.

MR: That's fine.

LW: But we've got some things in the mix, but it is our hope to have something to offer 'cause, you know, we wanted this to be made in the U.S. and worked with a provider here, but it's just when is the right time to sell it.

MR: Right. Yeah. Well, it's good to hear that you got something in the works, so that's exciting. Look forward to and to keep an eye on, right?

LW: Yes. Yes.

MR: That's pretty fun.

LW: You heard it first, but I can't tell you. Shh.

MR: Well, you know, maybe by the time this actually releases, it'll be out and we can put that in the show notes.

LW: Wooo, yes.

MR: We'll see, we'll see.

LW: We hope.

MR: Cool. the last thing I'll ask is, yeah, so I'm just a practical person. You know, and I think it's important that we teach practical techniques and have practical mindsets, right?

LW: Mm-hmm.

MR: I think that just is reality, how we have to deal with life. So let's assume there's a visual thinker listening, and there maybe are stuck in a rut, or they just need a little inspiration. What would be three tips that you would give that person to kind of encourage them to help them out of a rut? Just to give them a different way of looking at something?

LW: Okay. I have found myself in those ruts many times. I think that again, is where, you know, what you provide Mike, as far as a community, I think, you know, not AI, but technology, we have so much at our fingertips that sometimes it gets overwhelmed to even know where to look. So I would definitely say that, you know, finding a community that's right for you, whatever your practice is, and leaning into that.

I'm also a huge, huge proponent—is that the right word? I agree with feedback, looking for feedback. Again, I got feedback from two people in my life that I wasn't prepared to receive, but if you go seeking feedback and asking, you're in a position to receive that. So I think if you can find maybe not your best friend, you know, again, maybe someone in the community to provide feedback that could help you or give you a direction on maybe something that you could improve or work on, or even practice.

Because my second offering would be practice. We teach it in our workshops, and it is what most people don't wanna hear when they're starting something new, is that it takes practice, and it takes you know dedication with that practice. And so, I think, again, with the community, you can find ways to do that, or you know, look for avenues to practice. Then my third one would be because I often—you know, I should have added it to the tool as one of the tools, but maybe I'll add it here, and we'll say both, but your body, like, I don't think enough of us pay enough attention.

Well, that's rude of me. I don't know who's listening. I bet you're all great practitioners and mindful of your body. But what we are doing is physical, whether you're doing sketch notes you know, in a small capacity doing something large, this is our physical body, this is our brain. And, you know, we're all getting older, I'm just realizing that, you know, warming up and giving yourself time to get prepared in that space, whether you're sitting, standing, a long day, a short day, I really think understanding and paying attention to your body.

So I think that both a tool but could also help you get out of a rut in that if you're often sitting, when you're drawing, stand up, get big. You know, I talk about your body as a fulcrum. We've got a fulcrum in our shoulder, we've got one in our elbow, in our hands. And so being able to get physical with your work, I think can help you find some of those images that maybe wouldn't have come out if you were sitting or—

MR: That's great.

LW: -the opposite, so.

MR: Yeah. I love all three of those, and the last one especially because I thought often, you know, like you say, we sort of so conditioned to think digitally. And like, I've had cases where I've done projects where I've done sketchnoting all day with my iPad, and I came back and my shoulder was so twisted up, I just was not even thinking about it, I had to go to the masseuse and get massaged so I could loosen it up like duh.

LW: Which was probably nice, but.

MR: Yeah, I kind of felt like I had to at that point 'cause it was just so bothersome that, you know, the masseuse kind of loosened it up, but it made me aware too.

LW: Yeah. And the thing that just occurred to me is that, you know, one of our team members was struggling with being able to write continuously in a straight line, always going up or sometimes going down.

MR: Yeah, sure. Probably common.

LW: And, you know, through practice, you know, it got better, but I was like, you know what? I actually want you to step back and, you know, I wanna see your whole arm getting into this. And, you know, once they were able to kind of practice some of those bigger movements, all of a sudden that strain that was causing them to go up, I can't remember if it was the up or down, was overcome. So again, your body, your little fingers, your wrist, everything we need to take care of it and figure out how we can make it stronger so that we can continue to do this.

MR: Yeah, that's a good point. I think that's something that's often forgotten and not even in our awareness a lot of times.

LW: Yeah.

MR: So that's a good one. I like that.

LW: Awesome.

MR: Well, Lindsay, where is the best place to find you and your company's stuff?

LW: Oh, amazing question. We are Ink Factory, Ink Factory Studio on Instagram, on LinkedIn. We are even on TikTok.

MR: Nice.

LW: We love good TikTok. If you're over there and wanting to giggle, we do some fun things over there. And then where else? Also on Facebook, but really, you know, we're in Chicago, and if you're ever in the area, would love for you to reach out. Happy to make new friends and new faces in the community, but otherwise, Instagram is probably where we show up the most. We love it over there.

MR: Got it. And I would assume that your website is Ink Factory.com in case someone wants to hire you for—

LW: Inkfactorystudio.com.

MR: So, inkfactorystudio.com. Thanks for correcting me, yeah. We'll make sure we get that right on the show notes.

LW: Yeah, I think a tattoo parlor got there before us, but that's okay.

MR: Yeah, that's a good point. I've thought about tattooing, yeah.

LW: Oh, we have people come into the studio, like literally knock on our door and are like, "Hey, can you guys do a tattoo?" And we're like, where's the no soliciting sign, and we are not tattoo artists.

MR: Yeah, that's funny. Interesting that the impact that you're naming has that you don't think about in the moment.

LW: No, they don't, yes. Exactly.

MR: Yeah.

LW: We will do tattoos, you just might not like it. I'm just saying.

MR: Well, they may not be that permanent, right? With a Neuland marker, you know, eventually gonna wash off. Yeah.

LW: I love that.

MR: Cool. Well, thanks so much for being on the show, Lindsay, and thanks for you and the Ink Factory doing the great work that you're doing and helping people and encouraging and teaching. I think that's really important.

LW: Yeah, thank you.

MR: So thank you.

LW: Well, I thank you for having me, and you know, so great to finally make your acquaintance.

MR: Yeah.

LW: And for anyone who's listening, would love to hear feedback. Again, I'm open to it and ready to start conversations. So thank you for having me.

MR: Cool. Well, thank you. And we'll have to say everybody, wave at her little dog back there. What's your dog's name?

LW: I know. This is Dennis. Dennis—

MR: Hey Dennis.

LW: -you say hi.

MR: Hey, big guy,

LW: He's been quiet the whole time.

MR: Yeah, he is. Been a good boy. Good boy, Dennis. Good boy.

LW: Yeah, good boy.

MR: Well, and for everyone who's watching or listening, that's another episode. Until the next episode, we'll talk to you soon. Bye.

LW: Bye.