Well, one of the things that you say is that if the U.S. were to build a Scandinavian-style social safety net with universal benefits like health care, paid family leave and sick leave, affordable child care, free college tuition, retirement pensions, and free elder care, then the vast majority of Americans, regardless of their incomes, would end up healthier, happier, and more productive than they currently are. So obviously, I don't think that any of us don't know that. We've all seen documentaries that show this stuff. So what is it that prevents this in particular from happening? And I'll give you one other sort of follow-up to this. You may have seen it. Michael Moore, and I know Michael Moore tends to sensationalize things, but he did a documentary called Where to Invade Next, where he went around the world and looking at different social policies and, you know, joked about bringing them back to the United States. And one of the places he went was Estonia, where colleges, and of course, as somebody who is like a mountain of student loan debt, this was like part that caught my attention. And he said that when they were, they had actually thought about basically having a tuition hike, and the students just revolted. And he said, and then he basically cuts to a clip, and he's like, here's what happens in the United States when there's a tuition hike. And I think I'm pretty sure it was a clip of UCLA where students are just lying in the lawn. And I realized you mentioned collective action earlier, and I feel like there's almost a sense of collective apathy when it comes to this kind of stuff. Yeah,

certainly. I mean, I think we have, I think, and I think this stems back to the myths that we were talking about before, and that they really encourage us to focus only on ourselves and to think about, you know, can I make it work in the context of my own life and how what strategies do I need to use as opposed to thinking about, you know, there are these policies, even seeing policy as a potential solution. from our lives when we live in a sort of DIY society where we're expected to do everything for ourselves, that it's easy to not even think about that as a potential solution, as a way forward. It seems so kind of insurmountable or impossible. And I think that apathy is understandable in the context of the kinds of myths that we've been sold. And that's really why we know what the solutions are. We know the kinds of policies that would leave us better off in so many ways, and that ironically would actually help to chip away at those myths. I mean, research shows that once you actually put in place things like universal child care and universal family leave, attitudes start to change, gender attitudes start to change in ways that are more egalitarian. And so, you know, we could just change policy and help to chip away at some of these myths, but we have these structures in place where, you know, big money gets into politics and prevents that from happening in ways that, you know, prevent us from getting the kinds of policy changes that could actually reduce some of that apathy and lead us to see the value of these kinds of stronger social safety nets. And so we're sort of caught in this self-reinforcing cycle where the impossibility of changing policy, given the kind of political gridlock that we're up against and given the amount of money that's pumped into politics, makes it feel as though there's no point in getting involved collectively, even though with sufficient effort, I think there is possibility there. I think there are ways that we could better band together and see the ways that all of our faiths are connected and how we can benefit from policies, you know, even across the divisions and differences between us and how those kinds of policies would better support us all. I'd

always joke that like literally every college student in the United States just basically went on strike and refused to show up at class until tuition was either made free or eliminated. That might actually work. But, you know, getting people to actually do that, I think is to your point, like they're so driven by self-interest that it would be hard to do that. And this is coming from somebody who went to Berkeley as an undergrad.

Sure. And I mean, I think we are in a moment now where we're actually seeing college students protesting, not against tuition, but against other political issues. And so I think that, you know, if anything suggests to me that it's not pure apathy, that there is still the possibility of recognizing the value of collective action for promoting large scale social change. And historically, it has been young people who have pushed for that kind of change. And I think that's, you know, a moment where we could think about, you know, what would it take to harness some of that energy, either among college students or another place where I think we could kind of re-harness energy is things like Facebook moms groups. These are places where moms with young kids end up spending a lot of time trying to figure out, you know, what is this rash on my kid's leg? You know, help me figure this out, other moms. And at the same time, those spaces that can sometimes be judgmental for people in terms of, you know, moms comparing themselves to others, it can very easily be re- That energy that we put toward, you know, critiquing ourselves, comparing ourselves to others could be reharnessed as a tool for trying to work collectively to find those policies and to support those politicians who would strengthen the social safety. And so I think there are kind of places where that energy is untapped and that we could use more effectively to promote social change.

So something I wonder is in the process of writing this book and in your own work, have you spoken to policymakers and politicians? Like, because, you know, earlier you mentioned we were talking about your mom that, you know, she changed her mind about that government, you know, providing a safety net. And like I read this book and I thought, yeah, brilliant ideas. Like, where the hell are we going to find the people who will actually do this? Like, in my mind, I'm like, we need to send this book to everybody in Washington.

Well, thank you. I mean, and certainly, yes. And I think there are some politicians who are very much on board with this vision of reality. And the problem is that oftentimes they don't get the kind of financial support or kind of public attention that they deserve or the kinds of ideas that they would support. And that's in part because of how the money flows in politics and that if you're pushing for higher taxes, if you're pushing for regulations on big business, you're not going to get those big donors to support you. And so because of how much money matters, this is a place where those politicians who are willing to support these new structures can struggle. But that's also a place where with enough kind of individual level support, with enough small donors, you can match what some of those big donors are able to provide. And especially if you're pushing for policy change on the back end to limit some of the influence of money in politics, especially if we're willing to work collectively and potentially even find people among our local communities who are willing to run not only for national office, but for the local school board or for the local town council or for state government positions. But those, as we've seen in the context of, say, the fight, you know, the fight for reproductive justice and kind of the push against access to abortion in many places, these are state level decisions. And so state level policy offices also matter a great deal. And that can be a place where enough groundswell support can help to get someone elected, even in the absence of huge donor dollars in the process.

Well, this has been really amazing and insightful, I kind of expect it would be given the nature of the book. So I have one final question, which is how we finish all of our interviews at the Unmistakable Creative. What do you think it is that makes somebody or something unmistakable?

And I think what makes someone unmistakable is, I think this is a tricky question to answer, because I think it pushes us toward that kind of self-help individual, just like hack it out kind of a model that the myth of meritocracy promotes. And so really, I think what maybe makes someone unmistakable is they're willing to question, their willingness to question that. Their willingness to push back against these kinds of take it for granted assumptions about what makes people successful in our society or what makes people able to beat the odds. And instead think about, what are the larger structures at play here? What are the systems of privilege? What are the systems of power that are undergirding? Who gets ahead and who doesn't? And how do we not necessarily just valorize those people who are playing within the system, but push back against that and see the potential for broader social change. I've

asked that question probably a thousand times. That has to be one of the most insightful and interesting answers I've ever gotten to that question. So thank you. Like that was incredible. Thank you so much. I can't thank you enough for taking the time to join us and share your story, your wisdom and your insights. Where can people find out more about you, your work, the book and everything else that you're up to?

Sure. So you can find my website is JessicaColarko.com. You can find me on Twitter slash X at Jessica Colarko. The new book is Holding It Together, How Women Became America's Safety Net, which will be available June 4th, 2024 from Portfolio Penguin. Amazing.