How the 'Gotcha' Moment Unfolded

In this episode, Malcolm and Simone Collins dive deep into the viral interview clip (now over 9.5M views) in which a mainstream journalist from MSNBC/Telemundo denies basic genetics — claiming there are NO genetic differences between black and white people, not even for skin color.

What you didn’t see in the viral clip: the full context of a day-long filming session, the journalist’s “gotcha” moment falling apart, and why Malcolm deliberately played along to ensure the clip made it to air.

We break down:

* Why denying genetic differences (even skin color) is increasingly common on the left

* The real science on population differences, fertility windows, fibroids, menopause timing, and medical implications

* How this moment signals a cultural turning point: the right becoming the pro-science side, the left becoming theologically anti-science

* Media manipulation tactics, viral strategy, and why shock moments spread truth faster than documentaries

This isn’t about race supremacy — it’s about honesty in science, better medical outcomes, and fighting demographic collapse by understanding biological realities.

Episode Transcript: Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] what we see is a turning point culturally, and, and that’s what this interview represents, a turning point culturally with the right, becoming the party of science

Speaker: It’s science.

Malcolm Collins: and the left, becoming the anti-science theologically motivated party.

Would you like to know more?

Malcolm Collins: Hello Simone. I’m excited to be here with you today. We recently ended up getting in a debate against what I can only describe as a literal straw man of myth. And it went viral, super viral. I think the video’s at 9.5 million views. Now, one person was, was adding it up across the site. So really, really big and what we wanted to take this episode to do was to go over what you are not seeing from this film clip and the context of what we were thinking in this film clip.

Mm-hmm. And how we were trying to talk with her, because I think a lot of people get the impression that I walked into a room with A-C-N-B-C Telemundo reporter, right. And I sat down. And she just started asking me questions and immediately I was like, what? What are [00:01:00] you talking about? For, for,

Simone Collins: yeah, for context.

It, it’s Paolo Ramos. She’s, she’s from like, she’s, she’s not, she’s, she’s not unknown. Okay. She’s 193,000 followers just on Instagram.

Malcolm Collins: She has she worked in the Obama administration. She worked in the Clinton administration. Her dad is a very famous anchor at Telemundo and like one of Trump’s arch enemies.

She is very, like, this is the environment she grew up in. This is her religion. It, it very much reminded me of me talking to people who have been in Scientology and grew up in Scientology. Just their conviction. The, their weird world beliefs are completely normal. And we’ll play the clip in a bit, but most of, you’re probably already seen it, so I’m not gonna go into that that much.

Actually, Saron of ACA did a full episode dedicated to a breakdown of it because it was so emblematic of this.

Simone Collins: I think you should start with the clip. I think you should start with the clip.

Malcolm Collins: The point I was making is we didn’t just sit down and this was filmed, this was after a full day of shooting. It, it was, it was [00:02:00] actually near the end of the shoot that day, so.

We had had her at our house, we’d been talking with her in a number of different environments, is the way it works. You go to one room, you go to another room, you do some filming. You talk about this, you talk about this, you talk about this. And and before I, I play the clip, I’ll give you context when she started talking about this, up until this point, while she had been like a little woke about some things, it was like normal, like, let’s discuss this. Like let’s find common ground. Let’s this was when I think she decided like, oh, I’ve got this Gotcha. Planned for them, right? And immediately her gotcha fell apart because she didn’t seem to understand very, very basic biology.

And she didn’t, she thought that we were like racist or racial supremacists. When in the very clip we make it clear, we’re like different. Doesn’t mean better. We’re just saying that there are differences with specifically the one that I really couldn’t get over with her, and to give you a context of how we got there, was that, well, at the very least, the genes that code [00:03:00] for our skin color are different, right?

Like we can at least agree on that. I didn’t jump there because I was trying to jump to a non-sequitur. I jumped there because I was sort of like, okay, you disagree that there are any genetic differences between black and white people? Like presumably you at least agree on this and then we can sort of work on, okay, well then maybe other genes have associations due to similar sort of ancestral environmental conditions leading to them being selected for, but no, we got to the, do genes cause skin color differences?

And her answer was, and the other thing about this clip is this was not the full debate or like us pushing back and forth. It probably went on, I wanna say for 15 minutes or. Significantly. I don’t know. I dunno, it’s hard to tell how long something was, but what I can say is this was just a little bit of it, and it doesn’t fully show how crazy her position was.

Her position was just for people who don’t know in the, in the context, all [00:04:00] differences. Between black people and white people are due to conditions that they experience in their life, such as discrimination. So she would say the reason why, and this is a contributory factor, that black women have more fertility complications or inter menopause earlier than white women.

And we’ll go into both of these claims, ‘cause this is what I was talking about in context. The reason why I brought up that they, like it came up that they were different at all is because I was talking about, well, we need to understand this as a society that like we are actually different because if a black woman tries to have kids at the same timeline as a white woman having kids, she will not have as many kids successfully.

Yeah. Due to biological differences.

Simone Collins: And this matters in the bigger debate of demographic absentism because the primary driver of. F falling fertility rates. It’s not people not having kids at all. It’s people starting families later. And the problem is that many, including many of our black female friends are doing what everyone’s doing, the responsible thing, starting their families later.

No [00:05:00] one tells them that, like on average, the fertility windows of black women and the fertility of black women in general is different from. The rest of the population, which often is more represented in scientific research in, in, in Western societies. If

Malcolm Collins: anything, from their perspective, we were arguing against a Eurocentric medical perspective.

Exactly,

Simone Collins: exactly. Well, which is so funny because in some woke circles, it’s, it’s really commonly discussed, Heather. There’s not enough medical research that is specifically for women or specifically for certain racial groups that are on average different from other groups. Like it’s fully recognized there, but like in the context of this.

It’s.

Malcolm Collins: And in the, in the longer conversation we go into this and she goes, no, all of these differences are entirely and a hundred percent, even though there is voluminous evidence, this isn’t the case which we’ll go into. Not they’re due to discrimination in some way. And I was like, well, you know, if you have interracial couples, you still see the difference, but only when it’s women.

And I like went into this and I was like, and if you control for wealth, which studies [00:06:00] have done, you still see the differences. And she just would not have it. And it’s interesting to me because if you actually go down to. Dream of her perspective. What she’s arguing is that like black people become black not due to genes or like even, even more than that, black people are, let’s say taller on average, not due to genes, but because of the discrimination they face.

And I, and I’d point out another thing that will get into. Later in this is a lot of people are like, well, black isn’t a race or whatever. And I’m like, I never said black was a race. Like, I, I was not saying I I was merely saying if you’re looking at this one phenotypical characteristic, it is associated with specific other characteristics that may have medical implications, whether it be sickle cell anemia or diabetes, or the way you process vitamin D.

Like. That, that was the point I was making. I was not, and I even clearly state this in the police, I say, I’m not saying we’re better. I’m not talking about IQ here. And I’m not like I I, there was no like, and I’m not even [00:07:00] saying like this race or this race or arguing for the concept of race or ethnicity.

I was just saying that you can look at one phenotypic thing, and this matters a lot in hospitals. Like people die. When you don’t do this in a hospital context because if you, if you try to, for example, like even just looking at somebody broadly do a blood donation, like I can, I can have a well, let’s go from blood donations bone, bone marrow donation.

You know, if I have like a black wife and I wanna donate bone marrow to her. Can’t because we are biologically incompatible in that context. And so do, it’s more

Simone Collins: common, like just, how do you explain this if this isn’t true? Example that was brought up in discussions. Around this clip online was just then how do you explain sickle cell anemia?

Anemia, sorry. And that’s just a really easy go-to, like there’s, it is, there’s some populations that need to deal with sickle cell anemia and there are other populations that don’t have this. I mean, like, same with things like if you’re a hemophiliac, it’s [00:08:00] probably. Like how, how do you explain these things?

Malcolm Collins: I don’t know.

So, so it’s two things to bring up in this context. There’s actually a reason why as the debate got longer, I did not bring up sickle cell anemia and I tried to keep it incredibly narrow. I am first when it happened, when I was like, Hey, do you wanna check this on ai? I was still sort of in a phase of.

This isn’t a debate, this isn’t a gotcha moment. She just doesn’t know what she’s talking about. And we just need to make sure that we’re on the same page so we can create high quality news media for the general public. Right. Like that wasn’t me being like, oh, let’s use AI to, into debate or something like that.

I was just like, Hey like maybe we should come to some sort of common ground or, or look at a third party because what you’re saying is just like factually in like the broadest possible sense. Deeply, deeply untrue. Yeah. And it’s not like it’s one field like genetics. This is important for criminology, anthropology forensics like, it, it’s, it’s the basis of like multiple academic disciplines that this is untrue.

And [00:09:00] for many people who don’t know my background, I actually worked in the department at the Smithsonian at one point. I was the. The only staff still in this department. It was never used for crime at that point, but because everyone else was on a dig at this period, not because I was senior or anything that bones is based off of.

And some people were like you know, if you’ve seen Bones, you know that you can tell like the ethnicity. They show bones,

Simone Collins: not

Malcolm Collins: the

Simone Collins: objects.

Malcolm Collins: It’s the show bones from like DNA or from physical morphology, like the bones themselves or from various other things that are, that are tied or downstream of genetics.

And so for me, I’m almost like a nerd who is working in the Bones lab and then somebody is like, you can’t tell the race of somebody by you. You can’t tell. Or more importantly, because we’re not even talking about race here. You can’t tell the color of someone’s skin by their DNA because that, that’s specifically what I was arguing.

And the person in the Bones lab would just be like,

what?

What are you talking about? I. But I’ll play the clip here ‘cause you wanna play the clip and I know many people have seen it and it’s short. It’s like a minute 30, so we’ll play [00:10:00] it

Speaker 2: You’ve said things like black women are biologically different than white women. They, they, they, yes. They have, uh, different fertility windows. They have a higher rate of fertility complications, 50%, but there’s no scientific evidence to prove that. A black woman and a white woman are genetically different, right?

This is like, what are you talking? No, they’re no, no. Like literally, there are genes that code for their skin color. There are genes that, again, this is, I mean this is like government data. This, this is Emmy, right? This is the National Institute of Health. This is an American medical association. Like there, there is no scientific evidence to prove that, and that’s a big problem, right?

Because there’s no scientific, and that’s why I asked like IQ differences. Black people are genetically different from other populations. Yeah. I’ll say that again. There’s it, it, there is at least there is no scientific evidence to prove that. Right. And as people that No, no, no. I’m, I’m, I’m sorry. I’m stating Do you wanna ask an AI if there’s scientific evidence to prove that?

Speaker 3: No. I wanna ask on, on. Factually incorrect. [00:11:00] It’s humans are genetically diverse. It’s not a bad thing that humans, I’m saying it’s No, no, I’m not saying it’s a bad or, or, or a good thing. I’m saying there is no scientific evidence and I’m saying that is a factual, he saying that there is scientific evidence, there is scientific evidence, there is overwhelming scientific evidence on in this basic.

No, no, no. This is like saying the sky’s not blue, like it is genes that code their skin color. Mm-hmm. Right. Those genes are obviously different in them than they are in us. How is that Not science. That’s just like a basic fact. The genes that code their skin color, their level of melanin production are different from my genes that melanin production.

And that’s precisely why I was asking this question. ‘cause I think for some people that do believe like you, that people are genetically different. That has historically been used to promote racial hierarchies. Right. And that’s why I am asking you because, but so what do.

Malcolm Collins: anyway. I’m not gonna go through it and do a play-by-play like Sargon did I want to go through, oh yes.

The second part of the clip that I didn’t get to mention is as soon as [00:12:00] I realized that this was actually like a gotcha moment, I went into this mode of, oh my God, how do I get her to not cut this in editing? So you’ll notice this clip just came out of the tether trailer. She put it on her own Instagram, so like clearly she’s proud of it.

So this clip, right, was filmed back when Simone was pregnant. So months ago. No, no, no. Let’s

Simone Collins: provide more context. This was filmed the day before our scheduled C-section. I was sick as a dog. You can see me like trying to keep snot from falling out of my nose. Halfway through the interview, part of the interview consisted of me driving with them in our car as I went to get pre-op blood work done at the hospital, speaking in Spanish as they interviewed me live during the drive.

And yeah, they were filming us literally all day from a morning walk to me going to the hospital, to being there for a long time to them coming back and then you’re interviewing us together. Then in filming us around the kids, it was a long ass day and we barely had a chance to even talk about it after it [00:13:00] happened.

Like we had this short conversation of like, did she actually, did she, did she

Malcolm Collins: say that we actually like, I like got Simone’s side. I was like, did that really just happen? Like we didn’t

Simone Collins: even like have time to talk about it because then. You know, like we were getting the kids in order. I was, you know, getting ready for surgery.

We, we, you know, we, we went to the hospital for a c-section and then. Then text ended up then in NI, in the nicu. Like we basically forgot about this interview, like a,

Malcolm Collins: I did not forget about it. I mentioned it in just a video a couple days ago, like in the Johnny Anomaly interview. Like, oh, you did forgot I, I remember this.

Because I remember just like, what a gift to us it would be if it didn’t get cut in editing. Oh. ‘cause like midway through the argument after the AI thing, and I realized, oh, she’s not just being naive. She thinks she has us in some big gotcha moment.

Mm-hmm.

My immediate thought was, oh my God, I need to argue in a way that is entertaining and gets the point across to like a general sane person, but won’t trigger her to actually Google this and potentially cut this [00:14:00] after the interview is over.

Simone Collins: There’s no way though that they didn’t fact check this. They ran it anyway, because the other thing we are constantly doing while they were visiting us all day, as we do with every single visiting documentarian or journalist is. Please make this controversial. Please make this a hint, please. Well, but the thing is, is

Malcolm Collins: this isn’t just controversial.

This is controversial. Making them look like Buffo. Oh, yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Normally it’s, it’s just them making us look like That’s fair. Not

Malcolm Collins: making us look bad. Right. Like so, so this has been filmed and I went and I talked to her afterwards. Mm-hmm. And I said like, can you please. Keep that in the piece. Oh, you talked to her about it?

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I had a conversation with her and she was Oh, so she, yeah. This is her

Simone Collins: Christmas gift to you. Paula is a bro,

Malcolm Collins: right? No, she’s like, I, I don’t, and, and part of me, like, I don’t even know if she kept it in due to her own integrity or she just was really so dent she didn’t think to Google this or.

Walk by one with a ation. She no, maybe testing.

Simone Collins: She knew it would go viral. She knew the people on her side would stand her side anyway. And also truly believe,

Malcolm Collins: and they did on [00:15:00] Instagram. Lots of people did probably also

Simone Collins: still truly believes it, but she was probably also being a bro to us. And she’s like, well, they said they wanted, I bet this is gonna go pretty viral because I know the other side believes this.

And in her, per her view. All of the evil online racists are gonna jump on this and make it go viral, and X is dominated, for example, by evil online racist, so it’ll go viral there. It’ll make me look great. Everyone on Blue Sky is gonna defend me. We have no idea if this has even come up on Blue Sky, but like, basically like all my allies are gonna defend me and it’s gonna drive more attention to this story, which, you know, they spent money putting together, you know, they sent a, they sent three.

Oh, I mean, it’s gonna be

Malcolm Collins: great for this story. I’m excited to see this story. I have no

Simone Collins: idea where they’re

Malcolm Collins: gonna take this. Right. You know, I don’t know. Yeah. I saw that first part and I was like, this is great. Yeah. So it’s something to, to, to be important to understand that a lot of the comments are like.

Hey, why did you take this interview to begin with? Right. You know, first this is what we do. We get people like her who think, oh, this is gonna make me look really [00:16:00] good. This is gonna make them look completely

Simone Collins: evil. Oh, there’s so much more to it that though. No, actually, no. So her producer is, is from Grace, from Telemundo.

Yeah. This was our first time where a major Spanish language, Latin American, not Spain based outlet. Reached out to us about covering demographic collapse. We were absolutely thrilled. What, what doesn’t show up in this is that a huge portion of this interview was filmed in Spanish with me speaking in Spanish with their team.

So like, I think a huge portion of this is going to run in Spanish on Spanish language outlets. And like our audience doesn’t, she’s not gonna see it, but like, no, but like the larger context of us trying to do this too was that demographic collapse is a really big issue in Latin America. And it’s not really being discussed effectively.

Right. That’s not the point

Malcolm Collins: I’m making here.

Simone Collins: Okay. That’s your point.

Malcolm Collins: So the point I’m making here is that when we go into a context like this and are trying to create a viral moment like this, [00:17:00] right? The, the, you have to remember they have editing power on this, okay? So. You need to lure them into a scenario where they come away feeling like you look bad, but the average person watching this thinks they look bad.

This means there are many things that are suggested of us that are just completely off the table, right? Like people are like, why don’t you just stand up and walk out of the room? That would’ve one made us look absolutely terrible. Right. That would’ve been very easy for them to spend. It would’ve looked completely like us losing our cool.

Two is why don’t you just be completely deadpan about this and start citing studies and start going through, you know, sickle cell, everything like that. In a way it was just so

Simone Collins: boring. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: One, it would be boring. Two, if we actually broke through her and she to a point where she thinks to Google this.

No, no, I don’t want to drink this, sweetheart. She actually thinks to Google this, it’s gone. It’s dead. That’s not going out to [00:18:00] the general public. Right? She needed to think she looked good, but in reality did not look good. To some extent. Now, there was also the secondary thing where she might have known that she looked terrible.

I don’t think she did, but somebody might have known that. And it just went live anyway, because we had the conversation with her afterwards where I literally. Pleaded was her. I said, please, please include that clip. Like, you know, and she was so certain of herself that she was just like, yeah, of course.

Like she clearly thought like, oh, please don’t throw me in. The Bri patch was sort of her, her response to this. But I wanna be clear that there was a context and a conversation after this and everything like this. This wasn’t in isolation. And the reason that we do this, people are like, why do you try to create these viral moments?

It’s, this is how you spread information. Within the modern digital economy. If I went out there and I did a something like, you know, an inconvenient truth on demographic collapse, which by the way already exists the birth gap, right? Mm-hmm. It’ll do well, but it won’t do amazingly. You know, it’s not gonna do [00:19:00] these types of numbers, and that’s because that’s not how people share information anymore.

They share them in shock, outrage bites, right? And what this moment did was two things simultaneously, and I think we saw this on the sargon of a cod clip. We’ll get into the specifics in a second. Is it one acted as an indictment of the way the media acts? You know, this is the way of an educated woman.

She has a graduate degree from the Harvard Kennedy School. Right? Somebody educated in the mainstream system and under her comments there were people like, I bet these two people homeschool their own children. And I’m like, damn, right. This is why we do, because this is what’s coming outta the Harvard Kennedy School, right?

I mean, it’s a scam degree if somebody’s able to have this world perspective and have it, but. Sargon Acod is able to watch this and be completely generous to us. He just called us normal people and I felt cod. Thanks for normal people. That is honestly

Simone Collins: my first time hearing that. Maybe ever.

Malcolm Collins: Are we new normal conservatives?

Love it. Is is, is JD Vance a normal guy now? Are we just like, [00:20:00] are, are the tech conservatives normal? I’m, I’m happy for that. I’m here for you. But I wanna go further here. So one thing that was interesting that she did, oh. Oh, Simone, did you wanna say anything about this more broadly? ‘cause you were really excited to talk about.

It being the first Spanish language, the anything you wanna go? I said what

Simone Collins: I wanted to say about that. Okay,

Malcolm Collins: so, so, first. The sky is blue thing. I love that so many progressives are like, well, this glow isn’t technically blue. And I’m like, that’s an idiom, you know? Right. Like, you’re aware when somebody says it’s raining cats and dogs.

They don’t literally think that cats and dog. I don’t know why progressives have got so excited about that, that the sky isn’t literally blue and it’s an illusion created by the way, the, the light refracts in the atmosphere. I am. Literally to using an, an idiom for something that anyone can just observe, right?

And it’s a common idiom, right? It’s not like an un uncommon idiom or anything like that. The other thing. And I thought it was really interesting is her repeated use of the same phrase. Like there are studies that show this [00:21:00] when in actuality there was actually a great paper that went over all of the data from the studies that she claimed to cite, like from the NIH or whatever.

And every organization. That she cites as proving her position in fact argues the exact opposite of her position. And it’s interesting that they didn’t check this. Like, I wonder if that’s even like a legal liability for them to do that. And so Zero Hedge did a piece on this.

It was near the top.

And they go meanwhile in in, in the science or in actual science. Boast, the National Institute of Health and the American Medical Association have published and hosted studies, articles and policy statements that acknowledge genetic differences between human populations.

The NIH for. A number of them here. Genetic structure, self-identified race and ethnicity, and confounding in case control association studies. Then the quagmire of race, genetic ancestry and health disparities. Then all of us research programs, study on race, ethnicity, and genetic ancestry. Then for a MA race, genetics and healthcare racial [00:22:00] essentialism in the medical, in medical education.

And there’s also a study published in Nature 2021. African Americans and European Americans exhibit distinct gene expression profiles. Like you really do not get clearer than that from the mainstream research. Are you being too late? You know we’re on air and you cannot squeal and you cannot s scream,

I can’t shake

a baby, but I can shake a toddler.

Turkey. Turkey. Are you gonna quit Golin and Golin?

So anyway the point I’m making here is she’s literally just factually wrong in the saying she sing, and I know she’s factually wrong in the saying she sing. Like that’s why I was like, oh, like you could tell I was about to, and I love what other people also pointed out is your first intuition, Simone, especially because you were so sick you were about to give.

Birth the next day in a major surgery, you’re on all sorts of meds and [00:23:00] you’re just like, well, okay, like maybe we can come to some sort of a compromise is where you were, right. Instead of me, where I’m trying to find a point of agreement like, well at least you know, jeans code for skin color. The other thing that I thought was so funny in many of the things that tried to attack us or say we didn’t understand what we were talking about.

Because I wanna go over a few of them because I found them very interesting attacks. They were like sorry. Phenotypical traits are caused by alleles and not genes. And it’s like, okay, what causes allele genes? What causes phenotypical traits, genes. I am using the word that the general public is most likely to understand because that is who I am communicating with.

And note here, I didn’t say like the gene for coding skin color, or the gene for coding melanin production. I said the genes for coding, skin color and the genes for coding. Coding, melanin production. So I thought that that was very interesting that they like, knew one, what they think of as like a fancy word, and they’re very excited about it.

The [00:24:00] other one is they’re like, well, race isn’t a thing. Now note here, I wasn’t even arguing that race is a thing. So it’s weird that they go into this either because you know, well, it’s not a distinct thing, right? Like you can’t say exactly where like

white ends and black begins. And it’s like, well, you can’t tell a red. You can’t tell where red ends and blue begins. That doesn’t mean that red and blue are not colors, right? Like they can blend together, but they’re still distinct and meaningful categories. Right? And this matters in a medical context because that’s what I was talking about in terms of predicting things like fertility complications, which again we’ll get to in a second.

Next I wanted to talk about. The weird statement, which of course anybody who watches our show knows, and we have said there is, especially within African populations, that’s where the most human genetic diversity is. That doesn’t mean when you’re talking about American black populations that there aren’t specific things you can note about American black populations.

And [00:25:00] say, oh, this leads to this outcome, or this leads to this outcome. And we’re talking about American black population fertility collapse. It’s really important because this last year we have a video on this. They fell below white fertility rates. If you, if you look at the native born American blacks not propped up by immigrant blacks, they might be at around 1.35 by some estimates, which means they’re basically at extinction level.

Fertility rates like these are. Super low, super low compared to native white populations as well. And they’re basically being replaced with, with black people. We’re importing into the country. And so it’s useful to understand you know, if, if you are a black woman, that you need to start having kids faster and that despite that you also have some advantages that white women don’t have.

You can have kids in faster succession. Because your gestation cycle is shorter. But anyway. Well,

Simone Collins: no, not, not really. No. What it’s like by one, by like two weeks, one or two weeks, weeks on average, two weeks matters. I mean, like, not, not if you’re having like four kids. If you wanna have 10 or something.

Sure. [00:26:00] Makes a difference. Adds up. But like, you know.

Another interesting fact about black women’s pregnancies is they are shorter and they go through menopause earlier, but they also go through puberty earlier.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: But I want to to go into some other counter arguments here, and I wanna go into some more of the science here because I think it’s really interesting, like the conversation that happened around this.

Simone Collins: Okay. And do you think wants to play like Yeah, she can just go

Malcolm Collins: play.

Yeah. Don’t kill herself. Just keep on that all. So I’ll keep an eye on her. She starts killing herself. We’ll, we’ll get on that. Okay. Okay. Okay, so, this one was posted by Alonzo ndi and he said, and we, we actually saw this a lot, quote, genes determine skin color in quote Yes. But they also determine height, moles, and hair color.

But we don’t build social hierarchies around that. That doesn’t mean races are genetic. It means that you ring-fenced some genes and attribute moral social value to them. We call this racism. This is really. [00:27:00] Like spectacularly stupid because what I was talking about was in the context of medical diagnostics.

IE you can look at, if somebody comes into the hospital and they appear black, you can know that they have a higher probability of some fertility complications, which was the actual topic of conversation here. But two, even outside of that, two black people might be able to have, like, I, I, I, I think like if you, if you are let’s say true bright, like you don’t have other ancestral traditions mixed in with your tradition and you are just Japanese all the way down, you’re never gonna have a black kid.

If you’re black all the way down, you know, you’re not gonna have a white kid. And this is actually true. But this, but this isn’t true for let’s say handedness or height or something like that, right? Hmm. And that’s because those are single phenotypical expressions as opposed to ethnic groups, which are.

Group of convergent phenotypical expressions mm-hmm. That are tied to ancestral closeness. And, and this really matters, right? Like this, this, this [00:28:00] matters from a diagnostic perspective, but it also doesn’t mean that we don’t one rope off these other things. People have clearly, I mean, look, bumble sorts by height.

You have height filters on Bumble that is clearly I, I’d say height is, is, is probably as big in our society. A, a factor in terms of discrimination as ethnicity. It’s like you earn as much, I imagine

Simone Collins: it’s more of a factor. We, we’ve, we are at a higher rate of. In so far as it exists, interracial relationships today than we ever have been.

Like people really don’t care that much. I, I think it’s maybe what, like 25%. My memory’s so bad. Whatever. It’s really high now. It’s very low. No, no one cares. Basically. I think people are more likely to end up with their their own.

Malcolm Collins: No, no, no. We have an episode on this, an interracial relationship. They’re actually.

Exceedingly rare. No,

Simone Collins: no. They’re, they’re way more common now in America than they ever

Malcolm Collins: they are, but they are still exceedingly rare. I thought it was

Simone Collins: in the twenties. Are you sure?

Malcolm Collins: We did an just go to our episode on this. The thing that I [00:29:00] point out is that this idea, because there is this perception within the black community that like white people are like, white women are stealing all the black men or something like that.

Or white men are stealing all the black women or whatever. And it’s just like factually untrue. It’s, it’s not that common. And, and for here, I’m just specifically speaking of the black community, but I wanted to, to get to that. Another quote that I thought was actually pretty insightful and Sargon went over this one as well is by Zu V three, where he said the required takeaway from genetic differences video is that your enemies do not use words in the way you do.

They are not instruments for conveying meaning. They do not eliminate mapping from mental concepts to physical reality.

They are spells provide them provided. To them by wizards. The purpose of dispels is to make you do what they want. You may believe that you are having a conversation, but they know they are in a spell casting contest and their ignorance of everything that is real [00:30:00] provides them with absolute immunity to your spells.

There are many millions of spell casters out there. I am not on Twitter to talk to these people who cannot be reasoned ways or bargain waves without any more than the TV can hear you. I find. I am here to find others who understand the situation for what it is. Yeah, Malcolm, sorry. Words will never

get us

outta this.

There is only one way to ever going to take the country back from the spell casters. Every day we spend casting our impotent spells at them is another day they further consolidate their power.

Simone Collins: Recent US Census Bureau analysis for 2022 found that nine around 19% of married opposite sex couples were interracial.

Okay, so this is a little misleading ‘cause I went to the stats again. When you hear interracial marriage, what most people think of is, uh, black, white marriages, because that’s specifically what I was talking about here. And if you look at, , black women married to white men, it’s only 4% while 12% are interracially married.

Simone Collins: Okay, that’s married. Keep in mind, like we’re still dealing [00:31:00] with married boomers who are way less likely to be in interracial marriages and the fact that younger people are formally marrying much less and much later. So it must be much higher than 19% in terms of actual like functionally married couples.

So just keep in mind like no one cares anymore height, however. Huge area of discrimination. Yeah, I think way, way, like, way more than race. I, I, I, for personally, didn’t give a rat’s ass about what, like, what someone’s heritage was when I was doing my whole like, dating thing and OkCupid, I absolutely looked at height, but I, I went on dates with guys who were, who were Indian, who were Asian, who were like, ev everything.

But not I, okay. I did go on a date with one really short guy, but it was because he was famous. Because

Malcolm Collins: he was what famous? He was famous. Oh yeah. But anyways, Simone right here, [00:32:00] black Killing Men. Thank you. The, the base camp Reddit, which is now like even bigger than when we did our like little episode on it.

I don’t know, like that’s weird that it’s gotten so big. It’s cool. But anyway what I would like, it’s way bigger than like the Jordan Peterson subreddit. Now. I, I do not understand what’s going on. Not in terms of subscribers, but in terms of activity in post and, and being viewers. But anyway what I wanted to go into here was and it’s mostly like people complaining about like, relationship related stuff.

So, so like women, like Simone, women are terrible. But I wanted to talk about this guy’s post because I actually think he’s fundamentally wrong here, right?

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: I agree that they think that they’re casting some sort of a spell, and that this woman, I was never going to convince her of my perspective.

Of course, not a debate. The purpose was not that. It was to have her making this ridiculous argument. And what you saw, and this was one of my favorite very highly upvoted posts on this, was somebody arguing that she worked for Prager U was a plant and [00:33:00] was trying to make progressives look bad, saying progressives do not actually believe this.

No large portion of progressive believe this. This is clearly a psyop and a lot of people thought it was like a skit, or a lot of progressives actually thought it was a psyop. What happens when progressives first thing gets a psyop and then they’re shaken out of it to realize this person worked for the Obama administration.

This person worked for the Clinton administration. This person is a, she is earnest staff at CNCC. I say CNN. CN, bbc, wherever, Telemundo, right? Like um, M-S-N-B-C,

Simone Collins: Malcolm

Malcolm Collins: Cs NBC. And this got through an entire editing pipeline. Right. Like, when they see that, when they see the dark withered and me just being here, being like, they’re casting a spell.

Do you see it? They’re casting a spell. It wakes them out of this. It’s what, what

Simone Collins: I’ve seen though, and what I think show, I, I would only say confirms. This is people saying the exact same thing about us that they thought we. [00:34:00] Bora style plants and that no one could possibly say what we said. And I just, I think this goes to show, I

Malcolm Collins: read hundreds of comments.

I never saw that once. Was it on the, I saw that it was

Simone Collins: on x. Weird, because every time I go on x to make sure that there’s no one like asking us for something actually substantive I, I see like the le latest mentions of. Us in threads or discussions of threads about us. And that’s where I saw it.

Malcolm Collins: Was it, was it highly upvoted?

Like was it

Simone Collins: No, no, no, no. I just, I just, Sierra mentions the one that

Malcolm Collins: I’m talking about had like 50 to a hundred comments under. Right. I’m not

Simone Collins: saying this was like a highly viewed comment. What I’m saying is that there are absolutely people on the other side who, who really, really hold that view, who think that like we must be actors because no one could possibly believe what we believe.

And, and I think this just goes to show. How divorced from reality. Some subcultures of what, but I think, I think it [00:35:00] is very different.

Malcolm Collins: So here’s what you’re missing, Simone. Okay. Nobody who is mildly right wing who would vote for Trump, et cetera, watches this video and has a perception that we must be plants that no one could be as stupid as you.

No, no, that’s,

Simone Collins: that’s true. Well, I mean, I would say anyone who centrist or who has a degree in. Anything that required basic levels of science education.

Malcolm Collins: Okay, so where this is relevant is a lot of the people who watch this in thought she couldn’t possibly be real are Democrats. They are on the left. Okay.

Yeah. That is how you poison the well. Mm. You poison the well by having, obviously there’s gonna be extreme responses on either side. Yeah. But it’s only the people who already agreed with her world perspective, who are like. Oh, can you believe how silly these two are? A lot of people, and we, we kept seeing this in the comments.

A lot of people are like, look, I’m a scientist. Like, you really shouldn’t be saying this stuff. Other people on her side being like, Hey, you, [00:36:00] like, I hope you guys delete this. You know? It hasn’t been up that long. I, I guess it’s been clipped, but like, you guys need to, you can

Simone Collins: still take it down the whole thing.

Still take it down

Malcolm Collins: yet.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: A lot of people on her own side were mortified about this. Mm-hmm. And it did a lot to cause them to quite like, I knew she was gonna cast this spell. I knew exactly what was happening as soon as this started. And I think as shown by the public response to this, if you just look at X’s response to this I was 100% right that if I let her post this braggadociously, if I.

Appeared animated enough to make this entertaining and make her feel like she won that it was going to blow up in her face and on her side’s face and draw more people to our position.

Mm-hmm.

A lot of people have been saying, and I think this is worth repeating, that this is very similar to Lko in, , communist Russia, where the Russians hated everything associated with Nazism so much that they hated genetics, and so they just said genetics isn’t real. And so they came up with an alternate [00:37:00] hypothesis.

, The problem is, is it’s meant that the scientists who then wanted to recommend things based on genetics, you know, things tied to agriculture were not allowed to, and it causes famine. And I think hundreds of millions of people died. , At least millions of people died. It was terrible, terrible phenomenon.

. And it’s not just that in, in terms of the ridiculousness of this, , there was a chart that I saw tied to this that I thought it was pretty interesting, where people were like, well, you know, skin color isn’t actually tied to anything else. When we’re talking about e especially not anything cognitive when we’re talking about genetic differences.

And this chart here. , Looks at where skin color is in regards to genetic differences between groups, , versus things like gene site to pituitary gland development, , dorso, , ventral neural tube patterning, hind brain development, positive regulation of neuron differentiation, all of which are much more differentiated between ethnic groups than skin color is at the genetic level at least.

Malcolm Collins: This, the, to, to, to [00:38:00] continue here. There’s, I love the whole trust, the science thing. Everybody was really excited about that.

Where leftists are all like science, you know, like the

leftist redditer who’s like science, exclamation mark, exclamation mark, exclamation mark.

Speaker: It’s science.

Malcolm Collins: It’s like, oh, oh, not that science. But it’s actually interesting here because when they say science, they do not mean science. What they mean is. The academic classes.

Mm-hmm. Which as we’ve pointed out before, serve as the priest class of the urban monoculture. Yeah. I guess

Simone Collins: if you just replace science, like capital S, science with the priest class, then it makes sense. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. You, you look at people like us, I mean, we’re actual science fanatics, right? Like, not whatever is coming out of academia, but like replicable studies that can be used to, well, it can

Simone Collins: include whatever’s coming out of academia if it’s.

If it’s well done. Like we, we don’t inherently distrust everything from academia. Neither do any of like the heterodox far right. People who we follow [00:39:00] who often cover academic research. They just. Double check the methodology, that’s all.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, I think what we’re seeing here with this debate and this moment is that the right is becoming the party of science.

And if. So what people said, and this is absolutely true, so I’m what in this conversation, there were one side that was interested in being moral right in, in saying what they believed was moral. And there was another side that was interested in being honest. What science is, is honesty and stating what is honest over what fits.

Your moral convictions. Mm-hmm. Whether those be blank sadism or creationism. The, but the reality is, is that if you look at mainstream figures on the right, right now, you are not gonna get a right wing creationist reporter who’s just gonna be gfa. That somebody who they’re talking to is not a [00:40:00] creationist.

Mm-hmm. In fact, I would be surprised if there were many mainstream right wing individuals anymore who are creationists. Yet you will find many. Science deniers on the left, like this individual. And through that, what we see is a turning point culturally, and, and that’s what this interview represents, a turning point culturally with the right, becoming the party of science and the left, becoming the anti-science theological party, theologically motivated party.

Why would you disagree with that? You seem to have some alternate perspective.

Simone Collins: There are. Some,

Malcolm Collins: they’re anti ai, they’re Antifa, they’re anti, there are

Simone Collins: some Maha policies that I wouldn’t say work with the preponderance of like.

Malcolm Collins: I severely disagree with you here. So what I have seen is I have seen people make that claim.

I’ve seen that people make that claim about JFK’s [00:41:00] policies. Mm-hmm. And I will say more than 50% of those historic cases where somebody made that claim, it turned out upon more evidence that he was right. So when you say that, I think you’re just talking about the stuff that we don’t have the evidence on yet.

But in general, when JFK has said. I wanna question something. I doubt that. And we’ve even done episodes on this, like the aspirin thing, right? Tylenol Acetyl medicine, sorry, Tylenol thing specifically. And we actually point out that JFK’s position was the mainstream position in academia. It was just also, but also nothing else is safer, so we’re gonna recommend it.

Mm-hmm.

What his position was, basically like even though nothing else is safer, it still needs to be publicly known that you can’t just take as much of this as you want. Right. And, and, and this is something, and there are risks to taking it, which basically every academic agreed on until JFK said it and the left freaked out.

A lot of the stuff that people see as anti-science from the right is not actually anti-science. And I’m talking like recent papers when we go into that. There was like meta studies from like [00:42:00] 2021, right? Like, even Tylenol, it’s. Self had had corrected people’s tweets on this like the corporate Twitter account, right?

Like this was not an out there conspiracy theory. It’s just that they rebrand a lot of this as conspiracy theories. And if you as a woman I do not mean to to, but it’s true. I mean, you saw this in the interview and you see this more broadly, is women are about consensus making. And they also are more likely to believe the sort of consensus is put out there online.

And so if they see a lot of elites saying, Maha is a bunch of conspiracy theories, there includes conspiracy theories, and you haven’t individually looked into it. Like, I remember you thought the Tylenol thing was a conspiracy theory. You thought the studies were bad until I pointed out to you actually, this was the mainstream perspective until fairly recently.

Simone Collins: True.

Malcolm Collins: So I think that that’s your position when you’re looking at these MAHA things. But anyway, to continue here. I, I love something that a lot of people are talking about is that the, the progressives treat truth like the demons do in [00:43:00] frien which is an anime. And, and then to them words are merely a means to deceive humans.

I. Another one that I find funny is they’re like you know, we, like we various human groups share more in common with each other than we do with like other animals. Or we can interbreed. Now, first of all, look at our other humans are are, are there different feasts of humans video? In that video we point out.

It’s very common for different species to be able to interbreed. The, the prototypical example that everyone’s familiar with is grizzly bears. And polar bears can produce PRIs ply bears. And these bears can breed as well. It’s not that they always produce infertile offspring. So no, that is not we also point out that they split apart from each other, only slightly earlier in the historical record than European PA populations in the co-sign split off from each other, which the, just an African population, we also pointed out that video, if you’re looking at s and p closeness while Nand ALS did split from the European population earlier, we are closer to them in terms of like pure genes, like s and Ps than we are to the [00:44:00] cosign people. And this doesn’t mean that the cosign people are bad. It doesn’t mean that they’re less human.

It doesn’t mean that they’re in other species. It just means that there is a great deal of genetic diversity within humanity. Yeah. But when they’re like, oh, but like we are more related to each other than we are to like chimpanzees or something, that’s a bit like saying you know, humans and kangaroos are more related to each other than either group is to trees.

That doesn’t mean that kangaroos and humans aren’t meaningfully different categories of, of animals, right. But to continue here, because I, I I, one of the. Points that a lot of people make here is they say, well, there’s more genetic diversity in ethnic groups than between ethnic groups. Now this is actually a really fuzzy thing.

So I’ll get into the standard retort to it, and then I’ll get into a better retort to it than even the standard retort to it. So the standard return to it is what is called the loin. Fallacy. So have you never heard of this before? Yeah. Lo inten analyze variation locus by locus one gene at a time where differences between groups are indeed small at a single site.

However, genetic [00:45:00] differences across populations are correlated due to shared ancestry and history. Alleles tend to Koch occur in patterns specific to continental regional groups. When you consider multiple loci together, EEG via clustering algorithms like structure, these correlations allow. Highly accurate inference of an individual’s ancestral population, even though single locus variation is mostly within group.

In short, the more within than between statistic doesn’t invalidate population structure or taxonomic classification because. It ignores the inform informative correlation structure in full multi locus genotypes. And then even if you’re looking at pushback on this many scholars, EG Charles Roseman 2021 and Ramsey’s Withers and Adam Hoshman have pushed back on this, contending that loud lo loin himself did not commit this fallacy.

His argument was specifically about why traditional racial taxonomy isn’t justified by the low. Between group apportionment, comparing [00:46:00] it to other species, not a denial that populations are clustered. They are argue that the original person who coined this fallacy mischaracterized LO’s claim that the two approaches, variance versus clustering answered different questions.

Which is funny here because the people who. Like debunk this. They don’t debunk it as a explanation against racial clustering. They debunk it. Just saying that the original argument wasn’t arguing for, or, or against racial clustering. Everyone who is educated has always been for that. If you’re talking about.

Like genes, right? Like it matters, right? Like when he’s, like, there’s no genetic differences. One thing I could have jumped into, and this was one thing I specifically bit my tongue on, was, well, I mean, how do you explain like European populations having Neanderthal DNA in them and African or some African populations, depending on which one you’re looking at, having an unnamed hominid species in them.

And it, it fairly high amounts. Not, not like super high, but like a high minority, like 15% or something. And for Neander saw, you’re looking at like 3% to, I think 4.5% at the highest amount. But the point being [00:47:00] is that okay, that’s how you go about this if you’re just talking science, science, science.

But what if you wanna get into an easier way to understand why this is a really bad argument. Okay. So suppose I have two classes of students at a school. Each class had a different teacher. And then but they also studied on their own at home and everything like that. And then both classes went to take the SAT.

Now, if you average the questions that they got wrong on the SAT, in the same way that if you average like a huge number of people, you get a very average looking face. Right. Those two classes are going to be less distinct from each other than they would be any two people within one class would be from each other, right?

Sure. Yeah. So the two averages of the classes would be less distinct than any individual student within the class. That doesn’t mean that I cannot look at the individual questions that [00:48:00] students within one class got unusually wrong, or students within another class got unusually wrong to see where each of the two teachers might have room for improvement or might have been making a mistake in their teaching style.

Like does this get through? Did, does that make sense to you, Simone? Like, have you heard that before? Is this better? I’ve

Simone Collins: not heard this argument before, but,

Malcolm Collins: okay. So hopefully that, that better explains that to you. Oh, was they gonna stay here? Oh. Yeah. So the final thing here I wanted to go into was the point that started all this in case you’re unfamiliar with it. With the genetic differences between black and white. When I say black and white, I mean Americans in a medical context, right? Because we do categorize people into black populations in America on medical forms, we do categorize people into non-Hispanic white populations.

You do it all the time on medical forms. And it is important for medical diagnoses. But anyway, there is evidence. That suggests that genetic differences partially contribute to higher rates of certain fertility complications among black women, [00:49:00] particularly through conditions like uterine fibroids, which are the leading cause of infertility and effect fertility by impairing implantation or causing miscarriages.

Fibroids are a heretical with genome-wide associations, GWAS, identifying genetic variants more prevalent. In individuals of African ancestry that increase risk. The instance Admixture mapping and trans ethnic GWAS have shown that higher proportions of African genetic ancestry correlate with elevated fibroid risk.

And this varies by regional African origins with West African ancestry linked to single fibroids and East African linked to multiple trans tropic and DNA mesylation analyses also indicate that minoro trial tissue in black women may inherently be more susceptible to fibroid development.

Black women are up to three times more likely to develop fibroids than right women, even after adjusting for confounds, which ear with earlier onset and more severe symptoms. Now note here, if you’re talking. You include [00:50:00] differences in terms of healthcare access and wealth that matters more to Blackfoot to leave.

It doesn’t mean that we don’t have hard genetic evidence of these fibroid differences. Right? Next there is evidence of genetic factors contributing. Two earlier onset of mount menopause in black women, typically six to 12 months earlier than white women, which means around 48 to 50 years versus 50 to 55 years.

Meta-analysis of GWAS in African women have replicated several genetic loca associated with menopause timing, originally identified in European populations such as a HR two. R-H-B-D-L two prim one HK three UC one BR SK one TM EM 1 15 0 B and mcm eight Differences in allele frequencies between African and European ancestors.

Suggest ancestry specific genetic influences on earlier menopause. Credibility is supported by twin studies showing higher concurrence [00:51:00] for earlier menopause and monozygotic twins and common variants also linked to premature ovarian failure risk and may differ by race vascular motor symptoms. Aging hot flashes also show genetic I influences that vary across racial groups.

Note here, there, this is another instance in which you have a lot of stuff that’s not coming from this. If you want some studies around this, you can look at a multi-stage gene wide association study of uterine fibroids and African American women, African genetic ancestry interactions with body mass index to modify risk for uterine fibroids.

Genome wide meta analysis identifies novel risk lowkey for uterine fibroids within and across ancestry groups. Look, you can just

Simone Collins: say that. There’s a paper. You can read it. There’s a paper. Just look up the papers. Guys. Like, I mean, unless like, I mean obviously everyone should be asking AI with access to medical databases, questions about risks that may be unique to their.

Malcolm Collins: Ethnic group.

Simone Collins: Yeah, ethnic group. If you don’t have your own polygenic risk scores, which you can also just get, like, that’s the thing is, I [00:52:00] mean, we can just go on Nebula and look at our polygenic risks like you personally for these things, but a great proxy for that if you don’t have that data, is just being aware of relative risks that your group might have.

What, what is in her mouth? Is there a thing in her mouth?

Malcolm Collins: That’s her tongue.

Simone Collins: Oh, it’s just her tongue girl. I love you Turkey. But anyway, it was really crazy that went, went live and, and I think the craziest thing to me is that she was arguing a viewpoint that I’ve only ever really heard discussed in the context of.

People talking about racial discrimination in a medical context. That is to say like woke people on TikTok making shorts about how it really sucks to be. Like black or Asian or some other like non-white group in the United [00:53:00] States going through the medical system or being a woman because people aren’t taking your conditions seriously because most of the research has been done on white men, for example.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: Or like a lot of the, a lot of the samples that people have built medical standards around are white men. This is also something we’ve discussed in the context of sexuality that like a lot of the original sexual research was done. Around men and, and white men too. Yeah. And so like a lot of our understanding of sexuality is really limited because it was looking at from, from or looked at, from just one direction.

And it’s just so funny to me that like I, what had me flabbergasted was that I was hearing from someone who was broadly progressive, this view that I’ve seen argued against constantly by progressive people. So I, at first I was shocked ‘cause I was like, wait, that’s. That’s not what you’re supposed to be saying.

That’s not what your side says. But then I realized she was just trying to have this s gotcha moment where she wanted to just say, she wanted to say that we were [00:54:00] trying to argue that people of different ethnic groups have different IQs and are somehow inferior or superior. Because she’s trying to, to imply that we literally say the

Malcolm Collins: exact opposite in the club are

Simone Collins: white supremacists.

And the reason why she couldn’t actually ask us that as a gotcha was because we very clearly argue that that’s not the case, and we don’t argue that. And so she couldn’t get us on that because the only thing we’ve ever said to her point, right, is. That, that black women have different, you know, fertility issues and windows yeah.

Than than other groups. And that’s all she could go on. And, and that’s, I, I see what she was trying to do. She was trying to basically extrapolate from that to imply that we were white supremacists when we’re clearly not, because she needs to have a a straw man to attack. What was crazy for us was that.

I think on our podcast we often like, kind of make fun of and, and demonize woke people so much that sometimes I just [00:55:00] feel like we’re making up straw men or like finding the most extreme examples online and being like, ha ha, look at them, they’re funny. And then we make fun of them and, and, but I also like.

I don’t know. I, I wanna make the most charitable interpretation of reality in people. And so I’m like, but of course no one actually acts like that. No one would actually say that in the real world. And then like this, this was an instance of like us just dripping through our lives and like literally a straw man like jumps out of a cornfield and bites us, and we’re like, wait.

What, like it’s real. And that, that’s what was most crazy about it for me was that maybe, maybe this is more common in mainstream than I thought. But anyway, I love you and I’m glad we’re having our podcast again.

Malcolm Collins: I love you too. I, I do not think that’s what this was for her. I think SAR Vico has a good point that she realizes, and she even says it at the end of the interview, you know, people who like believe what you believe.

This leads to genocide and everything like that. Yeah. She is letting the cat out of the bag. She’s [00:56:00] saying, if I. She’s basically saying even if what you’re saying is right, if we admitted this as a society, we would be forced to racially segregate people. We would be forced to discriminate against people because to admit that there are differences between people always leads to NS and racial segregation, everything like that.

That was the implication of the ending line for her that she thought was this great Gotcha line. That’s, and this is actually what you see on the left, which many people point out why. Does ethnic diversity matter if we’re all exactly the same?

Simone Collins: Yeah, there’s so many weird. Yeah, catch 20 twos like blank slatem, but also like not having medical discrimination and Yeah, like your point too.

Anyway, she’s literally

Malcolm Collins: letting that out of the bag in her worldview. If she admits that jeans code for skin color, the next step, like five steps down the road, you know, slippery slope is not the,

Simone Collins: yeah.

Malcolm Collins: [00:57:00] Anyway, love you to Dec Simone.

Simone Collins: I love you too. Okay which one do you wanna. Is Indie happy as a clam sitting with you? Oh, I can’t hear you. Oh, her smile, she’s still smug, but I, I don’t think your mic is, is plugged in.

Malcolm Collins: Actually need to get a new mic. I’m, I’m down to one working mic at this point.

Simone Collins: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Do you need two? So, got a lot of pain from where my son punched me the first time he punched me full force.

I’m not mad at him at all. We were, I was pretending that I was gonna leave him outside for Krampus because he was being bad. And so he fought back and I’m like, no, you, you thought you’re gonna be left outside. You don’t get so. Oh, that’s called fighting to defend yourself.

Simone Collins: Necessary, obviously.

Malcolm Collins: And I’m like, but wow, that, that is quite a hook, little guy.

Simone Collins: Well, you need, you need a kid who knows how to fight. I, it’s all they ever do. I feel like my, my dinner making routine is, you know. Boil water, [00:58:00] chop vegetables, step over the cloud of children that are wrestling on the floor

Malcolm Collins: to get to, it’s, it’s, it’s like a Tasmanian cartoon or something.

Simone Collins: It like actually is, I need to get some footage of it.

Like, they’re just like in a ball like this undulating ball of fighting, wrestling children. Just, it’s just there. It’s like a tumbleweed. A normal part of the landscape is,

Malcolm Collins: well, that’s the way they’re with me too, is fight me daddy. Fight me. Fight me. Well that’s, that’s the way we raise them. Best way to go.

Anyway and you’ve been jonesing to do an episode again for ages, as have I, I missed it.

Simone Collins: I’ve missed talking with you.

Malcolm Collins: We’re gonna see if we can make episodes sustainable while we take care of the kids, right? So mm-hmm. That will hugely increase the amount of time. We can do episodes, but it means I need to have this one with me.

Simone Collins: Little Indy.

Malcolm Collins: All right.

Simone Collins: But I think she’s into it,

Malcolm Collins: so.

Speaker 4: Hey guys, how’s it going? So, [00:59:00] yeah, I will. Octavia, tell me about what you made here. I made, oh.

Speaker 5: So I can No, but explain it to me. How does it work? So you, so you see that right there? Yeah. The radio offer right there. Yeah.

Speaker 8: To fire.

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