Outro

She’s the Labour home secretary winning praise from the Tories and Reform UK – no wonder Shabana Mahmood’s crackdown on immigration has grated with some of her own backbenchers. 

But what is driving Mahmood's stance on small boats, and can her ideas land for Labour? 

Niall is joined by the former Conservative cabinet minister turned Spectator editor, Lord Michael Gove, who talks of his admiration for Shabana Mahmood. They also discuss her approach to politics and immigration policy as well as her leadership ambitions.  

Producer: Soila Apparicio

Editor: Mike Bovill