The first question relates to sort of the first step, talking back to the definition. What's your advice for developers or leaders out there who are in organizations whose leadership maybe doesn't intuitively understand what platform work is or why it matters. And it's just an important point and something there there's a few questions in the audience will get into later on this that relates to product management and advocating for work. So I think just to your question like, how do you have a conversation about this?

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