Like, there's, there's got to be some acknowledgement that if you yourself as a movement set the bar to total transformation of society, and what you get instead is like, plan a parenthood putting out a defund the police statement for whatever fucking reason, or like a lot of investment banks, right, talking about how much they care about black bodies, like, you failed, right? And so if you fail, like, then the question is, what can we do different? Right. Right. Yes.

Well, they got the black and brown stripes put on the pride flag. So it's a big one.

Yeah. That's a way. At some point, like, you know, I think that there's also a lot of people who are of the social justice set, who are frustrated and who have an acknowledgement that the current approach isn't working, just like disseminating your ideas via tumblr and just screaming at anyone who criticizes the wrong people has just what whatever political potential it has as long since being exhausted. And they want to change things too. But the problem is, is like, it's hard to be in that culture and to be the one saying, hey, guys, our tactics aren't working. Yeah, totally. Yeah, definitely. So

in the article, you'll talk about the this like really ugly, vicious, right wing backlash against like quote unquote woke culture that's going on in the US right now. Also, I would argue, you're kind of worldwide. Yeah, and leftists who critique social justice politics are often conflated with this. Like, how do you think leftists should respond, like, both to the right wingers who completely losing their minds and having like these wild meltdowns about like the woke's and to the accusation that we too are like right wing or even fascists by having sincere criticisms of social justice politics. What do you

think about that? I mean, I would just say that like ideas matter, right? And your policy positions matter, you know, I don't go around giving myself the title of feminist, because I think it's a little annoying when men do that. But certainly I aspire to feminism. And often when someone will sort of accuse me of being anti feminist, or folding those perspectives, let's say, okay, tell me an issue related to feminism where you and I disagree, right? And we'll go through and we'll talk about abortion, we'll talk about equal pay for equal work, and we'll talk about the division of house labor, and we'll talk, you know, all those things. And they can't name a single thing that we disagree about, right? They can't, I mean, that's often true just generally, right? Like one of the things I do all the time when I get pulled into these arguments is like, when someone say, oh, you're such a fact, we say, okay, like name an issue, a specific issue of substance on which you and I disagree. And it's amazing how often they just can't do it, right? Despite the fact that these things that were just fundamentally different people. And the reason is because like, you know, part of the problem with contemporary politics is that the internet has forced us to think about it all in this sort of sense of like affinity groups and like, are you on my team or not? But yeah, right, vibes, are you on my team? Are you like, are we cool together? Are we friends? But that's how politics is about. So you just, you continue to assert like, hey, look, so percursively, you know, I'm a big believer in reparations for slavery. I've always been a believer in affirmative action as a tool to address historical injustice in the world of hiring and of college admissions. I support really extensive police and prosecutorial reform. I think the whole system of criminal justice has to be torn up from the roots and redone. And so you just remind yourself and everybody else of who you are and sort of where you stand on these issues. But look, conservatives are, I would sort of let everyone know, this is actually as as insane as they are. And as disruptive as all this has been, this is actually a potentially fertile moment for us, because conservatives are letting go of core elements of conservatism to fixate on trans women in bathrooms, right? Like they are fucking losing their shit over drag shows and like what's in school libraries. Donald Trump, part of the reason that he won is that he told people he was going to protect Social Security and Medicare, right? Now, this is sort of bad for us because he did the popular thing, right?