Yeah, it's so important. I thought it was fascinating because in the episode you also talk about hope being like faith in a way and how some of these corporations want you to see hope as kind of faith, right? Something that is passive that you just kind of carry with you so you don't need to take action and try to achieve something better because as you say, you know, hope USA like in the Wells Fargo commercial will just kind of arrive if you let these corporations continue and do the things that they do. But then on the other hand, I feel like to some degree, like I don't know if I kind of see hope as faith a bit as well in the sense that I feel like I have hope that the future is going to get better even despite all of these things because I feel like if I didn't have hope then like I'd be in a much worse place than I am, right? In terms of how I feel about the world. And that doesn't mean that I don't wake up some days and like read about a massive disaster that has been made worse by climate change and how all these people are suffering and think like, man, the world is just fucked. But then like I still have hope that we can do something about it because if I didn't, I feel like I would just, I don't know, fall into despair and it would be really terrible.

Yeah, totally. And like I think also one of the points I try to make in the episode is like if you are a naturally hopeful person, that's like really great. And like you should seize that and you should like keep it. And also that like hope isn't the only emotion that is required, right? Like there's so many other things that like we have at our disposal and tools we have at our disposal and sometimes hope is the tool that you need to use whether that's for messaging or for your own personal sanity or whatever it is. But other times it doesn't have to always be there, right? Like it doesn't always, it's not sort of a necessary condition. I think is the thing that I think about a lot in terms of hope. And I think that the other thing that I didn't actually make it into the episode, but is a thing that I think about a lot, we ended up cutting it just cause it was kind of a little bit of a tangent, but I'm sure this is something that you hear all the time, which is like people seek critique of technology or like these us like saying like, hey, hold on, let's like have a conversation about like what is going on here? And people will say like, oh, why are you so negative? Like why can't you just have hope for the future? Why can't you just be positive, right? And like, I think that's a really interesting, I'm sure you hear that all the time. I hear it all the time too for Flash forward. All the time, yeah. I think it's really interesting because to me, what I think of as being very hopeful is saying like, actually no, we don't need all of this stuff. Like we have the tools that we need to make about our world at our disposal, in our communities and with our people. We don't need bazillionaires with like questionable ethics to come in and invent 9,000 more things that like take away our agency and surveillance and whatever. And like to me saying no is actually really hopeful as a practice and so like sort of reframing hope as not just being like affirmative or necessarily like agreeing to everything and like being swept along the tides of progress or whatever it is. And like saying no is actually quite hopeful in many ways to me. And so I think that's another piece of this that I think about too, which is that like, I think people often think of hope as just sort of being this like forward momentum kind of like always being like, yes, yes and let's do it. Like let's be hopeful, let's like charge into the future. When actually like hope could also be saying no, let's go this other way or like no, let's pull back and re-examine who what we have here in our own worlds and our own people. And that is very hopeful to me, but is often not framed as hope by the folks who want you to just be like, yes, of course, let's carry on and go into the metaverse or whatever. I still don't even know what the metaverse is. I don't think whatever it is. I don't think I want it.