Stephen Hawking was annoyed at Beckenstein for suggesting the entropy was real, and that motivated him to do this. I hadn't quite realized it was that argument, but that's right. Did that help get you interested in entropy? Because it was just a few years after that, that you started talking about the entropy of the early universe. It must have done. The Bekensaar Hawking entropy value for black holes and how huge it was. But to be able to assign a value to this entropy, that was crucial for that, you see. So that's how it sort of squared itself in my mind with the second law issue. You had this creation of the hydrogen, which

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