Intro

In this episode, Nathan sits down with Nora Ammann, cofounder and CEO of PIBBSS (Principles of Intelligent Behavior in Biological and Social Systems), a research initiative focused on the principles of intelligent behavior in biological and social systems. If you need an ecommerce platform, check out our sponsor Shopify: https://shopify.com/cognitive for a $1/month trial period.

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@labenz (Nathan)

@AmmannNora (Nora)

@eriktorenberg (Erik)

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00:00) - Introduction to Nora Amman and PIBS

(00:03:25) - Nathan's view that society is not ready for rapid AI development

(00:05:55) - Nora's framing of AI safety, alignment, and risks

(00:09:31) - The problem of epistemic access to future AI systems

(00:12:36) - Categorizing different research approaches to AI safety

(00:15:46) - Seeking epistemic robustness through plural perspectives

(00:19:00) - Expecting AI systems to continue getting more powerful and different

(00:21:13) - Nora's "third way" research approach using biological and social systems

(00:25:00) - Defining intelligence broadly across systems that transform inputs to outputs

(00:27:29) - Avoiding analogies and anthropomorphism when studying AI systems

(00:30:23) - Using multiple perspectives and assumptions to triangulate understanding

(00:35:13) - Translating concepts between domains more multifaceted than just "borrowing"

(00:38:15) - Learning from interdisciplinary practices like bioengineering

(00:42:05) - Key questions about the nature of intelligence and agency

(00:46:38) - Understanding hierarchical levels of agentic behavior

(00:49:32) - Aligning goals between individuals and organizations

(00:53:27) - Assessing the validity of assumptions and analogies about AI

(00:58:57) - Informing AI interpretability and evaluation with theory

(01:02:12) - Modeling interactions between AI systems

(01:04:56) - Using ecology as a framework for AI interactions

(01:07:46) - Developing a computational ecology theory

(01:11:45) - Learning from historical examples of societal transformations

(01:16:59) - Unprecedented speed and autonomy of AI development

(01:19:00) - PIBS programs for connecting researchers across domains

(01:23:39) - Seeking researchers to tie theory to concrete AI applications

(01:26:45) - Need for productive disagreement on AI risks and solutions

This show is produced by Turpentine: a network of podcasts, newsletters, and more, covering technology, business, and culture — all from the perspective of industry insiders and experts. We’re launching new shows every week, and we’re looking for industry-leading sponsors — if you think that might be you and your company, email us at erik@turpentine.co.