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Franz Deval: We continue to be in the democratic recession by the slimmest of margins. But there is at least a reason to hope that we may be starting to come out of it, he says. He cites countries like Brazil and Israel standing up against dangerous judicial reforms as an example. The weakness of autocratic powers around the world has also been revealed, Franz adds.

Frans de Waal is a Dutch-American primatologist and the Charles Howard Candler Professor of Primate Behavior in the Department of Psychology at Emory University. He is the author of, among other books, Chimpanzee Politics: Power and Sex Among Apes and Different: Gender Through the Eyes of a Primatologist.

In this week’s conversation, Yascha Mounk and Frans de Waal discuss how primate empathy forms the basis for human morality; the precedent for diversity in human gender and gender roles that exists in non-human primates; and why, despite attempts to separate human behavior from human biology, you can’t have one without the other.

This transcript has been condensed and lightly edited for clarity.

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