Intro

Join us as we delve into the fascinating world of pronatalist propaganda, focusing on a rumored Peppa Pig pregnancy plot. We examine modern and historical examples of propaganda influencing birth rates, from Brazil's soap operas to China's recent family-focused initiatives. Additionally, we reflect on personal experiences with baby doll simulators and their impact on attitudes towards parenting. Get ready to explore how media, culture, and policy intersect to shape societal norms around family and childbearing. Special mention to the humorous and controversial promotional campaign featuring Mummy Pig, making waves with its unique approach to celebrating parenthood.

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] They did it like a photo shoot of Mama Pig.

And they

Simone Collins: she's like, she's spread out on like a sort of like silk a, a lush silk

Malcolm Collins: showing off her baby bump and like, looking like half naked and like no, it's, it's like

Simone Collins: a total like glamor spread thing. we were given these baby dolls that you had to take home and the baby dolls would cry on a randomized schedule throughout the day and night. The babies looked very realistic, and. They would just start crying in a very realistic way. You had to have them with you all the time, and you would be graded based on your ability to placate the baby doll.

The, the child wouldn't stop crying at night. And so I marched outside and put it in the trunk of my mom's car, which wait, is this, it probably really deserve like disturbed passers by like, it's kind of amazing, like the police pulled in our house.

Malcolm Collins: From the trunk of the car. I didn't,

Simone Collins: I didn't really like. Now when I think about it, like if I came across, I would have a [00:01:00] freaking heart attack. I would literally crowbar that car open in panic. Like I, I just, I can't believe I did that. Like now being a mom, I cannot believe I did that and I feel really bad.

Would you like to know more?

Simone Collins: Hello Malcolm. I'm so excited to be speaking with you today because we did it guys.

We, we and our protist cabal coerced the British media into pumping out

Malcolm Collins: protist propaganda, or this is, this is the rumor going around a YouTuber who I like to watch. Izzy something. She, she paints her face in various like clown things. She did a, a piece on a a, a rumor that's going around right now,

Simone Collins: a conspiracy theory, if you will,

Malcolm Collins: that Peppa Pig recently got the, the mom and it got pregnant.

Yeah, let, let me, I'll,

Simone Collins: I'll give, I'll give the overview. Okay. And I'll, I'll also link to her video in the pinned comment because it's so good and her channel's just delightful and she's amazing. But basically what happened is Mummy Pig, who is the mother of the popular British cartoon character, Peppa Pig, who is the fourth most in demand cartoon character [00:02:00] in the world, she has her own theme park.

Okay. It's like she's a big deal. In case you don't know. She's the reason why many American kids have vague British accents. Which is great. And so the mother mummy pig announced on TV on live morning TV on Good Morning Britain, that she was pregnant.

Now my next guest is the matriarch of an entertainment at Dynasty. And now I'd like to welcome in her first ever interview someone we're all very excited to meet.

It's Mummy Pig. Mummy Pig. Good morning. Welcome to the show. Gosh. Well, I'm excited to share that our family is getting even bigger because. We're having another baby. I'm due in the summer and we are all so excited. That is amazing. Congratulations. How are you feeling about it?

Oh, thrilled. A little overwhelmed at the thought of having three children under five running around,

Simone Collins: and [00:03:00] then mummy pig's pregnancy and birth. Was covered even more in media outlets.

It was covered in magazines, it was covered in live events, et cetera. The first, it was announced on the news. It was, yeah. But more than that, it was announced by a, a, a British town crier. Like apparently there's this thing in the UK where like, if you want to, you can hire a town crier in full royal looking regalia to say, here you, here, you the, sort of the same way Royal babies were announced, in fact.

Allegedly you know, Peppa Pig's little sister and she already has a little brother George. So this is the family's third baby, but her little sister, Evie, was born in the Lindo wing of St. Mary's Hospital in London, which is the same wing where Kate Middleton has given birth to her children. That's like 7,000 pounds plus a night.

The rooms are really pretty. Well no, and people, this is a big scandal

Malcolm Collins: because everyone was like, wait, they didn't use the NHS, you know, they think they're too good for the nhs.

Simone Collins: Honestly, though, like. This, this one influencer lesbian couple [00:04:00] that I, I follow had had twins recently, like in NHS hospitals. And I'm like, woof.

Like I, I get why they shell that we would shell out, but also seriously, like given how much we pay in the United States with insurance, but we pay out of pocket to recharge deductible. Just to have a kid really. We, we are expected to pay $11,000 upfront, well before the birth, just to give birth at a normal hospital, though the rooms are much ni nicer than NHK Hospital.

So I don't know. Anyway, that's aside from the point, the, the, the Peppa Pig campaign around this birth, they also partnered with UK's National Childcare Trust. But that, that org is to be fair, primarily interested in helping people who are already bullish on having kids. And they, they were able to raise money through this, even did like a sponsorship with Clear Blue.

Like I think they showed

Malcolm Collins: well, yeah, mama and, and Daddy. Daddy Pig was Daddy Pig called Clear Blue Box of this is a pregnancy testing company in the United States. It's [00:05:00] like branded pregnancy testing. It was the one where there was a rumor that started that if you broke them open, they had plan B inside them.

Oh my God. Yes, yes. And it turned out it was a

Simone Collins: desiccant and people were like. Encouraging people to eat. Oh my God. Right. I forgot about that. Yes, that clear blue. And then, you know, of course the, the Peppa Pig franchise also released 10 episodes about Baby Evie's arrival where, you know, and you can also buy like a movie version of this called Peppa the Baby.

But then people started on posting on social media that this was an effort to counter falling birth rates in Britain. And so. I, I freaking love that. I love that. Go watch like Izzy Dizzy, Izzy or Izzy something. Again, we're gonna link to her videos. She, she, she's way bigger than us. She's like a million subscribers.

So still this is all to say whether this was propaganda or not. Propaganda is underrated. It, it is. It is [00:06:00] quite. Powerful despite costing countries relatively nothing. And you know, keep in mind here that Hungary is spending between five and 6% of its, of its GDP on trying to raise birth rates through all these cash handouts that aren't really working.

So that's equivalent to what the US is spending on its defense and military. Just to give you a sense of perspective here. And,

Malcolm Collins: and their, their birth rate went up less than neighboring countries, and that is its lowest rate ever. Now. So the, the point here that we're getting to is one we did not actually plan a big conspiracy around Peppa Pig.

The ISTs did not, not plan this, even though this is a huge meme online right now. That's exactly what we would say. If we did, if we did. But it's not actually a bad thing. Like if I was going to attempt to, so first let's talk about why Peppa Pig, because people will be like, but Peppa Pig targets very young kids.

Why would you use it as a way to spread propaganda? And it's like, why do you think the Alphabet Brigade is targeting [00:07:00] young kids, was their crazy books? Because you need to build a person's value system. While they are very, very young. Yeah. But in addition to that, what many people have already reported is there kids who like Peppa Pig asking the parents for siblings

Simone Collins: Isn't that sweet?

And it's a very good video that's happen pick

Malcolm Collins: up.

Simone Collins: But I think that though is in the end, we literally, we were just walking by in a, in a strip mall this morning on our strategy walk this like. Kid gym where people were dropping off their kids and it was advertising like at a parent's date night where you could drop your kid for three hours and they're like, in their advertisement, they said, imagine a moment where you're not watching Moana for the 15th time.

And in the end though, parents end up watching a lot of what their kids are watching 'cause they're stuck around their kids. And so as much as you say, yeah, you gotta get kids while they're early, and yes, this does affect children. The reason why you're seeing this stuff combined with things that are very much targeted at parents like the, the [00:08:00] National Childcare Trust in Clear Blue is because parents are watching this stuff.

They're a captive audience. But what I like it about it even more, Malcolm, is that the key thing, like beyond cultural sovereignty, we do absolutely vote for propaganda. But we are not about shaming dinks or childless people into having kids. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Carism is all about making it easier for people and cooler for people who are already in to this kind of thing, to family and having kids going all in.

And what Peppa Pig is doing here is just celebrating parenthood amongst those who have already bought in. These are in, these are already in, you're, you're not. You're not making things crazy. And then also like, quite frankly, it's more affordable for people who already have kids to have more than it is for someone who doesn't have kids, to have kids.

I mean, when you're going from zero to one kid, you're making a huge lifestyle change. You're buying everything for the first time. You're completely changing your career and your schedule and everything else in your responsibilities. If you have two kids and you're going to three. Not a lot changes and you already have a lot of stuff that's [00:09:00] reused, which is something of course that Mama Pig talked about in her exclusive editorial with that Italian magazine where she has the maternity spread.

'Cause she has

Malcolm Collins: the point here being is that you are much gonna have a much easier time influencing somebody who already has kids to have more kids. Huh. Or to have the marginal additional kid. Yeah. Instead of somebody who has zero kids at all. Yeah. Which is funny that the dinks are all afraid of the prenatals propaganda in Peppa Pig.

Mm-hmm. And I'm like, what Dink dual income? No kids' family is watching Peppa Pig.

Simone Collins: Yeah. They're not even no one's. Yeah. No, no. Dink is watching this and feeling bad about

Malcolm Collins: their lives.

Simone Collins: Literally the opposite of insidiousness. Yeah. Well, and that's, and that's the, the really interesting thing that I wanna touch on in this episode about prenatal as pop propaganda is that one propaganda.

We're all for it. It's actually quite effective, it's very affordable and it works really well in concert with. With cultural sovereignty when done right, which is something we're really big on, is let, let me live my life the way I want. Don't tell me how to live my life. Don't shame me, don't legally coerce me to live a [00:10:00] certain way or restrict my choice.

And yet, what's so ironic about up to date, like actual prenatal as propaganda, because we don't have any real evidence that the Peppa Pig thing was actual prenatal list propaganda, like led by government at all or anything. Is, is that? The actual attempts being made by governments are super bad.

Like, and, and then the famous case studies, when you see birth rates affected by something that is essentially and functionally propaganda, it's typically backfiring. Mm-hmm. So let, let's go into it. 'Cause I think this is just a fascinating subject.

Malcolm Collins: I, I gotta start with one of my favorite cases.

Simone Collins: Okay, go ahead.

Malcolm Collins: Which is the town in Japan where there are no more kids? Oh gosh. There's only one kid in the town left Uhhuh. So what they've done is they have made dolls of other kids so that when the kid goes to like the playground, it doesn't look empty when they're walking to school, it doesn't look like there aren't other kids waiting at the bus stop.

But [00:11:00] it actually looks, and if you're only listening to this on audio, my God, you have to Google this town. Yeah, it is. The most haunting, scary thing you've ever seen. It

Simone Collins: looks straight out of a horror film.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Imagine going to a children's park and what, and this instead, you see are a bunch of, of stuffed hay figurines that are meant to look vaguely like, like rotting scarecrows of children because these have been put out for many years, in many cases.

Right. You know, they, they keep building new ones. And so the old ones are sort of left as like. 3-year-old scarecrows. All around the tattered. Yeah. All around the town's environments where children used to play. I I was making a horror movie. This would be a great horror movie. Like I can imagine few things scarier than, or than this inversion of childhood.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Though we live in the timeline where basically truth is stranger than fiction and more entertaining, so at least wave [00:12:00] that. But yeah, I mean that's a great example of it. It not working. So thanks for kicking us off with that. I, I would like to remind people that it, it does work. There, there are numerous case studies and, and examples including tv, radio, music, movies, celebrities that, that have absolutely immeasurably changed human behavior.

They're not all intentional. Sometimes they're kind of unintentional, but we're able to see examples where, yes, absolutely the equivalent of propaganda has changed behavior. So there was, for example, a Tanzanian radio drama. Called Tona Waki, that led to 82% of listeners reporting increased condom use and reduced number of sexual partners.

That's, that's pretty freaking huge. This, this was entirely, and this was real propaganda, targeted at HIV pre prevention. And in northern Nigeria, 60% of family planning clients cited the radio drama Ruwan Dre, as their reason for visiting a clinic. So you can use propaganda to get people to have more protected sex.

You can use propaganda to get people to go to [00:13:00] a, a clinic. The Indian Soap Opera, K Jessa. Hi, I'm, I'm doing a Malcolm Mis mispronunciation here. I can't even try. Funded by unicef. So again, clear propaganda was found to shift viewers' perceptions of social norms the longer they watched. So that demonstrated that sustained exposure to educational entertainment can change attitudes and behaviors.

And then the radio program, Behan and Amma and Nepal combined drama and like live cullin segments. It sounds really fun. Reported four outta five listeners took appropriate action after listening, contributing to improved nutrition and health behaviors at the community level. So. 100%. And honestly, like, do you remember the Savage Love cast?

Did you ever listen to that? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it wasn't exactly sex ed, but I mean, I think really it did, it did influence, I think a lot of people's sexual behavior and things that they found to be normative or help them contextualize things. In terms of movies and in documentaries. And so this, this wasn't intentional, but films like Aaron Brockovich, blackfish, the code and, and [00:14:00] Food Inc.

Sometimes intentionally, sometimes not. Sparked real world, world changes from environmental reforms and animal welfare policy changes to shifts in consumer consumer eating habits. Increased awareness of food safety.

Malcolm Collins: Well, the most famous case here is the Brazil case, right? Or you, you should, I'm getting that.

I'm

Simone Collins: getting, I'm getting into that. But we're, we're starting now with success cases. 'cause the Brazil one. Was very effective. Malcolm, but

Malcolm Collins: not, but I don't think it's a i. I think that the best success case for prenatal is propaganda that we are aware of. I'm gonna get to these,

Simone Collins: Malcolm. I'm gonna get to these as a failure.

I'm gonna get to these, I'm gonna get to these.

Malcolm Collins: Okay.

Simone Collins: But basically propaganda works when applied smartly. But yeah, absolutely. The, the two examples of propaganda shifting birth rates that are most prominent and well documented.

Are either unintentional or backfiring programs. So the Brazilian soap opera example that Malcolm referenced, basically there was a study, on this, on this [00:15:00] phenomenon called soap operas in fertility Evidence from Brazil. It, this was done in 2012. The researchers analyzed data from 1970 to 1991 and found that exposure to global networks novellas.

So this one particular TV network which consistently portrayed small middle class families. This is the key thing, correlated with reduced fertility in the covered regions. And, and so basically women in areas with global coverage, 'cause this network didn't play everywhere, which is you, then you have a natural controlled experiment experienced a 0.5 to 0.6, percentage point decrease in the probability of giving birth, which is the equivalent to five per six to two, five to 6% of the mean fertility rate.

So the effect accounted for 7% approximately of. Brazil's overall fertility decline, which seems like a little bit honestly, like considering the relative cost of this and what other countries are spending to try to shift fertility, it's pretty meaningful. And then also you could, you could see other areas of of influence.

So parents in global covered areas were [00:16:00] 33%, like more likely to name their children after novella characters. So that also confirms behavioral influence. You can't just say, oh, it was something else. 'cause you're also seeing other areas not necessarily directly fertility related where. The, where the show had a lot of influence.

So that's, that's crazy, especially because the big, the bigger picture here, if we wanna kind of compare it, is Brazil's fertility drop between 1960 and 2000 matched China's one child policy decline, but without state coercion. Which suggests the media power in, in social transformation. So in China.

You're getting a checkup and then you're getting a forced abortion, whereas in Brazil, you're at home watching a telenovela and sterilizing yourself. I mean. I, I know which country I'd wanna be in. I wanna watch the tele novels and have people leave me alone. And then the, the second one, and this is actual sort of pregnancy intervention, it just went the wrong way, is the botch teen pregnancy avoidance programs.

The, the most definitive evidence comes from [00:17:00] a large randomized control trial conducted in Western Australia. And this was published in The Lancet, where nearly 3000 girls aged 13 to 15 were tracked from 57 schools and about half participated in the virtual infant parenting VIP program, which involved tracking home infant simulator doll for a weekend and receiving related health education.

And then the other half. Receive standard health education without the doll. And then the key findings were that by age 28% of the girls who participated in the VIP program had given birth compared to just 4%. In the control group. Wait eight, 8%. 8%, but still that's double the rate by age 20. Age 20 is an early time to have kids, and then 9% of the VIP group had an abortion versus 6% in the control group.

So they also had more oopsy pregnancies for whatever reason. But overall girls exposed to the infant simulator were 36% more likely to experience a pregnancy, birth, or abortion.

Malcolm Collins: People don't know the infant simulator. You saw this a lot on old shows as like a trophy. Oh, I

Simone Collins: did it. [00:18:00] I did it. I had it. You did

Malcolm Collins: it.

So explain. Yeah. So this,

Simone Collins: this happened to me in middle school. What happened was, in, in, as part of our health class, we were given these baby dolls that you had to take home and the baby dolls would cry on a randomized schedule throughout the day and night. The babies looked very realistic, aside from the, the fact that they smelled like bowling ball shoes.

Because they, I were sprayed with like a disinfectant. 'cause God knows teens are infectious and you can't spread disease by having too many teens touch the dolls before you disinfect them. And. They would just start crying in a very realistic way. You had to have them with you all the time, and you would be graded based on your ability to placate the baby doll.

So you were given a key ring and there were a bunch of little key cards on it. One was like diaper change, one was feeding, one was. Soothing. So you had to like put these, these cards in their backs to figure out what was wrong with them. 'cause you didn't know. And then every now and then a [00:19:00] crying cycle they would go on, could not be solved by anything.

You would just have to wait it out. And it, this was a little bit awkward for me when I had the doll because my doll I, I had to like go to the grocery store with my mom and like. I am, I'm like shoving the cards into its back and like people think that it's a real baby and then I'm like beating this child.

And then also I think my doll was defective. I am imagining because you.

Malcolm Collins: Are an awkward adult. Yeah, you would've been a very awkward teen and you would've ITT look great and absolutely looked like you were like trying to

Simone Collins: turn off a child. It was not the best look for me. Personally, and keep in mind, like until I met Malcolm, I was very against having kids.

This program worked for me because the, the child wouldn't stop crying at night. And like none of the keys worked. And so I marched outside and put it in the trunk of my mom's car, which wait, is this, [00:20:00] it probably really deserve like disturbed passers by like, it's kind of amazing, like the police pulled in our house.

Malcolm Collins: From the trunk of the car. I didn't,

Simone Collins: I didn't really like. Now when I think about it, like if I came across, I would have a freaking heart attack. I would literally crowbar that car open in panic. Like I, I just, I can't believe I did that. Like now being a mom, I cannot believe I did that and I feel really bad.

My only concern then was literally like, I'm gonna be given a bad grade because the dolls like chip is gonna show up as like being neglected. 'cause we were told that we were. What happened? Were you given a bad grade? I told my teacher that the doll was defective and she didn't. I think she was as equal.

She was like the, the classic lesbian gym teacher kind of person I think. And like, she was just like, I fine. I don't care. Like I don't, you know, I'm not big on kids anyway. So yeah. That, that happened. But yeah. So what happened though, and I saw this with my classmates, is there were some girls. Who were like by out going out buying clothes for the baby.

They were so excited for the baby program. [00:21:00] They were like, oh, look at me. This is so great. And, and these programs I think were different from like earlier 1950s versions of these programs where you had to like carry around a sack of flour or an egg, which I think we saw in some of our childhood cartoons because this was, you know, a real baby.

And so I can absolutely see how these Australian studies were onto something.

Malcolm Collins: What we're seeing here is. Different cultural, genetic predilections interact with different forms of propaganda in different ways. Mm-hmm.

Simone Collins: Yes. Yeah. That for some girls, this was like, okay, I'm sold. I freaking love this.

And for me, I was like, I. The paving, the trunk of the car. But yeah, so I think, you know what, what we also need to do is, is discuss what's going on now though with propaganda and tism and, and the most prominent example now I would say is, is looking at Russia and China. China. These are the countries.

China

Malcolm Collins: are some really interesting programs. Well, no,

Simone Collins: what's happening more if you look at news alerts with prenatal is it's all about Russia right now. And the headline that is [00:22:00] just repeating ad nauseum is. Putin is paying Russian school girls to have babies because he's giving some kind of stipend or bonus to school girls.

Like, well basically minor, minor women, like women under 18 if they choose to have children. So that's, that's, that's outside the domain of this. But like, Russia's kind of going for broke 'cause they've like, killed, killed their men. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Russia's really screwed, like they're really screwed. One of the most screwed demographic countries in the world right now.

Yeah. Because they have a fertility rate of like. What is it, like 1.2 or something, or what? Let's see. Russian, TFR. And

Simone Collins: it's not just that though, they're like killing their, their men of reproductive age. So unless they're like, Hey, let's, let's bring Harems back. Let's do polyamory. Let's do polygamy.

That's, it's not,

Malcolm Collins: well, they're also losing their women tons of women. Oh, it's 1.41 Ukrainian

Simone Collins: women. Yeah. But like the news I've. Seen recently is more about Ukrainian women leaving and not coming back. But yeah, Russian women too. It's, it's, Hey,

Malcolm Collins: Russian, Russian women. I hasn't they, [00:23:00] they're, they're definitely and in many countries, well they're, they're, they're, they're sought after Korea.

Both Russian and Ukrainian

Simone Collins: women are sought after as passport bureau wives. So, you know, 'cause they're like hot and, I don't know, I think they're too cunning. I wouldn't wanna.

Malcolm Collins: No, I wouldn't want one either. Anyway,

Simone Collins: Anyway th that's kind of aside 'cause that has to do more with money. There is actually a lot of Russian propaganda work being done, which is great because when you think about prenatal as propaganda, I think a lot of people think of that famous poster of this woman with like nine children.

You know, she's holding a baby. And then behind her, her oldest children have joined the military. Already. It's, it's great. I, I, I love it. It's, it's a wonderful poster. I'll, I'll share it with you. But the, the Russia, the Russian State Duma, has passed legislation that bans all but positive depictions of parenting and children in the media.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And be, people have been to be like I think this is hurting some like gay rights groups. This is hurting some groups. Yeah. No, this

Simone Collins: is, so this was, this was on top. Of existing anti LGBT legislation. Yeah, so what they've done most [00:24:00] recently is they've effectively outlawed the promotion or dissemination of content that portrays child free lifestyles or voluntary childlessness in a neutral or po, even neutral.

You can't, so it can only be depicted negatively or positive. Child free

Malcolm Collins: can only be a tragedy, which I think is good. It is, it's good that Russia is doing this and it will have an effect.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Although, you know, I, I am, I'm, I'm more for the Peppa big style of, well, I mean, look at

Malcolm Collins: America, right? I, I think that worse than glorifying child-free lifestyles mm-hmm.

Is glorifying having two or one kids which I think is a problem with us. Natalist stuff. Yeah. Because the ones,

Simone Collins: yeah,

Malcolm Collins: if you're gonna have kids, you should go

Simone Collins: for broke.

Malcolm Collins: Man. If you look at the, like Boss Baby, which people could see. Oh, this is a prenatal listing. The TFR average of the main characters in Boss Baby.

'cause it's about two brothers.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Is what, what is it? One. One, isn't it? One? It's one. Yeah, it's one. It's literally abysmal because it is, one of the brothers has two kids, the other brother has no kids. And [00:25:00] that's,

Simone Collins: and that's two kids with a stay-at-home. Dad, I'm sorry. If you have a stay-at-home parent.

Yeah, you've gotta go for, you've gotta go for a lot. You gotta go for, for at least like fix, you've demonstrated that you're willing to invest in parenthood. So invest in parenthood for the love of God and don't isolate your children with you. Yeah, I mean, the whole point, I mean like sometimes I feel like the whole point of having siblings is just to water down the negative effects of, of parents, you know, you just, you don't have to worry about yourself screwing them up as much Kids.

Or moderating. But anyway. So, but

Malcolm Collins: hold on. If you look at older shows, like, like consider shows that you grew up on, like, home Alone and stuff like that.

Simone Collins: Huge family. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Large families are very normal. And that's not even about kids. The, I think the, the TFR average and home alone is like five. Yeah, they're

Simone Collins: big families.

It's great. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And it's, and it's, it's not even like, brought up as like a point in the show other than, you know, even with a large family, they still love all their kids and it, you know, sometimes they forget why.

Simone Collins: They just sometimes forget them. Oops. Like, on multiple occasions. But it happens, right?

It happens. But [00:26:00] anyways, the Russia's new law, just basically pro, pro, prohibits what's called child-free propaganda. Any media. This is films, advertisements, online content. That encourages or justifies the conscious decision not to have children. This was passed unanimously, unanimously by the Duma in November, 2024.

So it's relatively new. And like, like you were saying, what this legislation does, it, it amends existing laws. It already banned promotion of L-G-B-T-Q relationships and gender reassignment. So this is on top of like an anti woke thing. And violations of the law are, are fines up to about $4,000 for individuals.

'cause again, this is like if you're a social media influencer, this is not just for like movies and up to $50,000 for companies. So

Malcolm Collins: this Wow. No, I saw one woman who was like, really? She was like really sad 'cause she'd become this big influencer or something. Oh no. And she goes, wait, now I'm getting fined for this.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Now being a dink influencer and suddenly being fined, I mean, if you and I were fined. $4,000. Every time we promoted kids, we'd be kind of [00:27:00] screwed.

Malcolm Collins: We, we focus on Russian State tv. I think a lot of people would be surprised by the state TVs. We spoken on Iranian state TV about increasing i's fertility rate.

We've, we've spoken on you know, Russian State TV about increasing Russians fertility. Yeah. And next

Simone Collins: week it's Australia and the Netherland. And then what on Monday it was Germany. So other people are waking up to this. But what, what had happened in 2024 in Russia was they, they named it, they declared it the year of the family.

So this was just one of many things. But that's typically how propaganda has worked in countries like it, it, it's supposed to be used in concert with a bunch of other things. But basically starting September 1st of this year. So this hasn't actually gone into effect yet. There's gonna be social media monitoring, media regulators so we haven't even seen it yet, so we can't say how it's gonna play out, but we're absolutely, you know, interested in.

Malcolm Collins: I'm actually, I was just thinking like with all this stuff Russia's doing, maybe we should reach out.

Simone Collins: I know 'cause this isn't the only thing they're doing. So here's some other propaganda style, year of the family things. There's [00:28:00] family studies. Became an optional extracurricular in Russian schools.

So this is designed to like instill traditional family values, promote abstinence before marriage, encourage having multiple children, the curriculum, this, this, this isn't what I would necessarily, I mean it's, it would freak a lot of people it, this wouldn't work in America, but it covers topics such as masculinity and femininity, the importance of large families and the reproductive function of the family in addressing demographic problems.

Like it's your Russian duty to do this, which is just so. Russian, I like it. There are also public campaigns promoting family values just in media and advertising. So it's not just don't do this, it's also, Hey, we really support this. So I think that that's, that's just really interesting. And then of course there's, there's China.

You know, that's the other place that's really trying to go for this, and this is after decades of the one child policy. Now they've pivoted to their pro-birth. Culture. So there are television and service ads. There are propaganda posters and slogans, social media campaigns cultural [00:29:00] content. And you can see, and I, I will send them to you hilarious examples of before and after the child policy in, in Japan.

Here, actually, let me send these on WhatsApp. Oh, first I'm gonna send you, a picture of the Linda Wing, where Peppa Pig's baby sister was born and a a a, a screenshot of the Grazia exclusive. Oh, wow. Pig. The Wing is nice. I want that. I want that. I mean, I, my hospital delivery room

Malcolm Collins: was pretty nice. Oh my God. Yeah. They did it like a photo shoot of Mama Pig.

Is this from the mama Pig Fake fur? That's from the,

Simone Collins: the magazine exclusive.

Malcolm Collins: And they, and they make her look like one of those fancy magazine ladies. I actually, yeah. Like she has

Simone Collins: her, she's like, she's spread out on like a sort of like silk a, a lush silk

Malcolm Collins: showing off her baby bump and like, looking like half naked and like no, it's, it's like

Simone Collins: a total like glamor spread thing.

It is, it is. Absolutely. It, it's really, it's, it's kind of weird 'cause they also had her on a, on a podcast,

Malcolm Collins: wait, hold [00:30:00] on. It goes in this world exclusive Mummy pig sits down with Grier for her first pregnancy shoot and interview oink.

Simone Collins: No, they, they really, it's the extent to which they acted like it's a, it was a real thing, especially with the town crier and like, being really specific about it being the Lindo wing.

But let me show you actually, like for comparison, the room that I. Gave birth in was actually pretty, not, not bad. 'cause I know you don't see them. 'cause I don't, I ask to be alone when I give birth, but compare, compare the room where I gave birth to in like, or my post postpartum room for indie.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

But it has a better view.

Simone Collins: It has a better view. Yeah. I mean it doesn't have like the, like your room

Malcolm Collins: too and your bed figure.

Simone Collins: Yeah. So, so you're

Malcolm Collins: bigger than where the, the, the prince was born.

Simone Collins: That, well, I'm just saying like good American hospitals are, are pretty good. Like I, I just think giving birth in the uk, if they really wanna make it more pleasant, they need to make every hospital like the window wing.

Like these are basic [00:31:00] requirements. It's, it's not, it's not exactly like a delivery room in Turkey,

Malcolm Collins: but the view that you have from there is of a, a giant cornfield. It's really nice.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I'm, I'm really excited to give birth there in, in October. 'cause then like hopefully the cornfield would be this like gorgeous color and everything.

But here I'm, I'm sending you. A, an image of a statue in China before and after the, the pro-family policy where there's this, it starts with a one child policy statue where there's a mom and a dad and a child, and then suddenly. Two more child statues

Malcolm Collins: appear.

Simone Collins: Huh? I I

Malcolm Collins: love this In, in China, where they're adding children to the statues.

Simone Collins: Yeah. What, what on earth is going on? And I'll, I'll show you a, a stamp from the year of the pig where. Huh? What? There's one pig and then there's this, and now it's, it's two pigs

Malcolm Collins: with a bunch of little piglet through piglets. Not even a bunch. Yeah.

Simone Collins: We're trying to normalize

Malcolm Collins: families of three, which I think is what,

Simone Collins: what is this?

With [00:32:00] Peppa, with pigs and, and birth rates. It's, I thought it was like at it, right? Like rabbits not, we're reproducing like pigs. That's not like a phrase. I know. Piglets. Piglets. Yeah. Here, here are other examples. There's before and after of just some other materials and ads. Where just more children are just randomly being illustrated in China.

Yeah. They, they

Malcolm Collins: added it was a girl playing with a kite, and now she's waving at her dad and brother. Which one? Yeah. And then

Simone Collins: there's, there's like a, a TV commercial where the, they're, they have, they're depicting like a house full of children and there's a, the woman coming into like a bedroom.

Holding her stomach saying it's eating lively around here, and like focusing on old and young generations together, enjoying fireworks together. And also there are examples of places where one child policy propaganda paintings and illustrations on the sides of, of buildings have just been like deleted, like acid washed off.

Well,

Malcolm Collins: I, I note that like in China, I doubt this'll work [00:33:00] because it all feels so totalitarian. That's the problem.

Simone Collins: That's the problem. But

Malcolm Collins: the thing is, is, is, is while Japan has a troubling fertility rate right now it does have like one of the best of the wealthy countries in East Asia,

Simone Collins: but also I think what Japan does so well.

Is they, it's

Malcolm Collins: prenatal propaganda. You, they've got, you know, girl LA and grandpa, and grandpa turned young again. Yes. You can watch their episode on prenatal anime. Darlings was Frank's. But Japan has extensive, well thought out prenatal stuff that was made by individuals in Japan. Who are concerned about losing their culture.

That's the thing. But who but who

Simone Collins: make it glamorous and not going back to that Brazilian case study where they inadvertently reduced the birth rate. They did that because the glamorous family had fewer children. People, it's not like they hated children. It's that they wanted to be like that family.

'cause they still had children. They just named people after the,

Malcolm Collins: no, I mean, I think making it look glamorous is gonna work depending on the culture that you're targeting. Mm-hmm. I think one of the things that Japan has done really well. [00:34:00] Is they target an understanding of Japanese culture. Yeah. In, in their messaging.

So they don't make lots of kids look glamorous in something like grandpa and grandpa turned young again. But there's like the great scene where she goes and the person is like, oh, well, you know, I'll be closing on the shop soon because just every year there's fewer and fewer people that come through.

You know, that court makes me so sad. And she goes you know, it's just the way of things these days. And then the other person, like stomps her feet angrily and they go, why aren't we even fighting? You know, and like, why aren't we even trying? Yeah. And the the, the point here is like, are we gonna go down without even a fight?

Yeah. And I think it appeals to traditional Japanese sensibilities. Mm-hmm. Of like, yeah, we should be fighting this. Or you look at. The way it's promoted in something like log where it's ultra vitalistic. Mm-hmm. Like, you know, we're, we're, we're gonna go to the stars and expand throughout the universe. And the, the big bad guys, they wanna keep you [00:35:00] down and at low population levels and, and have you believe there's a carrying capacity of the earth or in darling with.

You know, it's a life extensionist, who are the bad guys? And the, the people who believe in good old fashioned sex. And having kids with a mom and a dad who are the good guys. And, and then they make it about fighting monsters in meccas as well.

Simone Collins: Well, because it come on because of anime,

Malcolm Collins: right?

But, but. At least in Dar with Frank's, you could only the mon the, the, the meccas only work if they have a male and female pilot and the female sits down, butt up in front of the male. In a very suggestive pose,

Simone Collins: no, but see, this is how it's done. You don't like doing it in Russia where there's these classes in school like your elective, where you can learn about femininity, masculinity from a teacher who you probably don't respect that much.

That's not how you do propaganda. You do propaganda like this enemy nonsense. Okay. People. No,

Malcolm Collins: but [00:36:00] I, I, I, I mean I'd mentioned this in the, in the anime episode, but the, the crazy scene in Darling with Frank's, like, if you wanna see this, would never get published in the us. One of the characters, no shame at all, is shown in this, in the show Hmm.

Is a girl who has a crush on another girl. Mm-hmm. And she tries to get the robot to work the, the robot, which is like, this is what you use to save and preserve human civilization. To work was a girl and a girl, and like no shade is shown on them for her being gay. But it's like, but this just doesn't work.

Simone Collins: Yeah. This, this is mechanically continuous civilization

Malcolm Collins: to protect it.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Which I thought was really a bold thing to put in an anime. It was in modern context, but you know, it was it was there.

Simone Collins: Yeah. No, absolutely. No, I, so I think that's a really good point. I mean, in terms of what we suggest.

It's, it's, it's feed into what works for your culture. Don't be creepy about it, like in China. Or I mean arguably like, I, I wanna say like I just don't think shame [00:37:00] is how you do it. As Aria Babu found in countries where I think you do feel more shame for in being insufficiently. Conservative or being insufficiently conformist per what the government or society at large expects of you.

Then you've, you've made the pressure exogenous. You have to make the desire endogenous. It has to come from within and doing it in more subtle ways where it's inspiring through anime or through telenovela or through exposure to a doll. That makes you super excited about it. 'cause it actually helps you.

Wrap your head around the idea of being a parent. 'cause that's another really big thing. One thing that Catherine Alek talks about in her book, Hannah's Children, where she interviews mothers who are college educated in America, but who have more than five children or five children is that a lot of the, the typical American child is never around babies, is never around other kids.

Like, it's hard to model what being a parent could even be like because they don't know what it, they, they, they can't imagine it like. Who's, who has held a baby, you know, who's a 20-year-old [00:38:00] right now? Not that many people, unless they themselves had a lot of siblings. And that helps, I think a lot. So like that exposure I think is also important.

And in a positive context of course. But then, you know, also stuff that targets the parentally inclined. That's why I like the Peppa Pig thing. I think it's brilliant because you're leaning in to the families who really are the most likely to solve the birth rate problem. Because this isn't about.

Shaming people into have kids know.

Malcolm Collins: I, I think like, yeah, you, you could say it doesn't work with shame in some cultures, but I think within other cultures like you look at you like you are not convinced to have a kid by giving a little doll or something like that. Mm-hmm. And, and men was in my culture wouldn't be, but I, I know that when I say something like.

You are technically a cuck. If you don't have a kid, you, you are being cued right by the state that targets it. Right. Practice to support Yeah. The people who are replacing you. Yeah. That, that you are being genetically replaced and paying for it. That, that would get me. Pumped. Yeah, so you're

Simone Collins: [00:39:00] right.

The, the targeting is important. Like the, the dolls only work for the girls who are like, oh, a doll, how cute. And like, oh my gosh, I can really see myself and I,

Malcolm Collins: you can capture the future of human civilization through being reproductively successful in raising those kids. Well, yeah, that's what appeals to me.

You know, all of this symptom fatality and, oh, you know, this is high status, or, oh, this is, I don't care about any of that. But if it's, oh, this is how you matter in the grand scheme of reality, and this is what is morally good. That gets me.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm. Yeah. When I, yeah, I think what kind of initially got me was that you were like, this could be just an additive to your achievement in life.

Like one, you don't have to give up your career, but also you can, you can also have this huge family and be really impressive this way. Like there are ways to frame it to highly career-minded, ambitious women too, if you frame it the right way. So yeah, there, there is no one size fits all for sure. And every country has to think about this very differently.

But I really do think that the, in terms of the propaganda that's taking place today, [00:40:00] if we had like a 2025 prenatals propaganda Olympics, Russia, despite their intense investment and especially the crackdown and it's gonna begin in September of this year, is not taking first place, the Peppa Pega days taking first place, like hands down clearly.

Yeah. So anyway, I'm excited.

Malcolm Collins: I mean, I think that fortunately we're seeing a shift within public narratives that people are seeing this with Peppa Pig, and I love that they freak out that there might even be a prenatal list, a gen one of the thing, and they're like, it's so insidious. Children are seeing this.

It's like Barot, children are seeing a mom. Have a three kid family and you didn't freak out when kids were given books about how to give like, b*******s, like fair point. It was a real thing by the way. Yeah. That this is one of the books that were, was, was being fought about in the court cases on this.

Like, you, you what, how, how is it that this is a problem to you? And you're like, oh my God. The other side has propaganda too. But we will use our [00:41:00] propaganda. I will make. More addicting AI agents than you. I will have them on every website. We are going to win this fight. Darn it.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Absolutely. I love

Malcolm Collins: you.

Simone Collins: I love you too so much. Am I, am I making you reang taquitos tonight?

Malcolm Collins: No, you're gonna reheat the reang from the last two nights in taquitos.

Simone Collins: Yeah, that's, so the answer is yes. Yes. I'm making, and then I'll, I'll the wole

Malcolm Collins: you made and I couldn't, you just can't

Simone Collins: bear Simone say yes.

Malcolm Collins: Can you, can you throw out the older guacamole?

Because I can't tell which of the older one I did. No, I

Simone Collins: already, I already fed it to the

Malcolm Collins: chicken. Oh, so the new one separated into like a liquid and guacamole and we just need to remix it.

Simone Collins: I did,

Malcolm Collins: yeah. I think it's the result of adding chicken bullion.

Simone Collins: No, 'cause it was dry. Malcolm.

Malcolm Collins: Well then what's the liquid liquid?

Simone Collins: I, I will take a look. I haven't looked at it in the fridge.

Malcolm Collins: Okay.

Simone Collins: But I think it'll be fine

Malcolm Collins: after remixing,

Simone Collins: condensation formed on top. But no, the, the, the guacamole that is in the fridge now is only the guacamole we made last night. [00:42:00] The, the other guacamole has gone to the chickens.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I love you to death, Simone.

I am very excited for your taquitos. You make really good taquitos taquitos, by the way. Well,

Simone Collins: as long as I follow your rule, which is. Not too much meat. Not too much meat. Very little meat. I know. Basically it's like, it's almost like a spice in taquitos. Meat is a spice, it is not a, it's like sushi levels, like, but the wraps, the, the roll sushi roll levels.

Yes.

Malcolm Collins: Literally, it should be smaller than sushi levels. I know.

Simone Collins: See, it's, I'm a, I'm more of a burrito person. I want like, you know, pack it in there. Taquitos are like basically just lightly flavored. F fried tortilla rolls. But stop your, stop your complaining with cheddar cheese or no cheddar cheese.

Malcolm Collins: Cheddar cheese would be quite good.

Simone Collins: Okay. And then you'll dip it in the guacamole after I remix it.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I mean, unless cheddar cheese makes it harder, I mean, it, it marginally.

Simone Collins: No, I'll shred some, I'll shred some it'll be fine.

Malcolm Collins: Right. Love [00:43:00] you to Dec Simone. You are a very, very good wife. You're a pro decimal and I hope that we are, prenatal is propaganda for our fans.

And obviously the biggest prenatal is propaganda is to, and we achieve this very early in the movement is the, the, the high fertility billionaires, the, you know, these were like the original stories and they were, they were quite. Attempted to be negative towards us, but they always associated tism with TE Elite.

Yeah, they, they had

Simone Collins: to make us seem wealthier than we were. In higher status than we were because we wouldn't seem like big, big bads, big bad elitist. Yeah, they couldn't, what was funny about this, I think they, they would want to play us down 'cause they wanted to make us look as bad as possible, but they also had to make us look as evil as possible.

And you're not sufficiently evil if you're not literally like the most wealthy and powerful.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. But, but the funny thing is, is what Tech Elite literally translates to in the mind of the average American. Is [00:44:00] self-made, educated wealthy person which is the category of wealthy people that most people want to be.

Most people don't want be old money or blue blood illegal. I think

Simone Collins: you're, you're forgetting how few people even know what the, the. Acronym VC stands for.

Malcolm Collins: No, I understand Simone. But the point I'm making is that they, they, of all the groups they could have painted us as, there is no other group of elite that is more cogent with the mainstream American dream.

Hmm. In terms, yeah, no.

Simone Collins: Yeah. That is the new American dream is that you strove, you took risks and it paid off.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. And so, it really painted and we we're actually already seeing the effects downstream of this where people consider it high status within specific groups how many kids you have.

And it's even becoming like, no, it's

Simone Collins: so cool. This is just like when you and I. Popularized married search funds and at first people were like, no one does that. Yeah, we did

Malcolm Collins: the thing and now it's taught about at Harvard and [00:45:00] Stanford Business School. No, it's just

Simone Collins: one of the standard formats. And Yeah.

Before you would never hang out at like a a, a tech elite party. And hear people be like, oh yeah, I'm gonna start my company and have a lot of kids and bank my embryos. And now it's just like super normative talk,

Malcolm Collins: super normative. I'd say like almost every event, we, we see this now. And by the way, the thing she's talking about so people don't know that.

People don't know that's about, but you know, I went to Stanford Business School when I was at Stanford Business School. I. Invented. It's actually really,

Simone Collins: Steve, the, I just wanna be clear. The, the fact that Malcolm went to Stanford Business School is actually a really big deal because it is harder to get into than the Harvard's Business School.

Malcolm Collins: It's also harder to get into than any other degree program at Stanford. Any PhD. I remember somebody was like, oh, you pretended like you a Stanford. PhD when you only have an MBA and I'm like, actually the MBA is dramatically harder to get into than the other PhD. Yeah. I applied to other PhD programs and I got in like at at equal schools to Stanford.

I didn't apply to Stanford because I was looking at going to like I can't remember where it was, but I remember I got into [00:46:00] it at other Ivy League institution or, or quality. And, and, and the business school was the one that I was really excited about because I was like, oh, this is the actual hard one.

And people don't know that, but the point here being is I was watching recently, a thing on Lex Freeman, for example, who I actually had believed was like a smart guy. And it turned out that all of his degrees are from Drexel and he never actually worked at the professor at MIT. He, he taught. Night courses that like anyone could go to, and they were off semester night courses.

And, and the, the picture he uses from all of his profiles of him standing in front of somebody else's equation at one of these so wait. It actually matters because. Friedman calls himself an MIT professor because he did this. Simone and I have also taught lectures at Harvard Business School, at Stanford Business School at Carnegie Mellon Business School at I'm sure you've taught something at Cambridge.

So we could call ourselves Harvard or Stanford professors with the exact same credibility that Lex Friedman is an MIT professor. And that really annoyed me when I saw that because I was like, oh, why didn't I think to lie? You know. [00:47:00] It is just, just 'cause I wouldn't do that. I guess

Simone Collins: you wouldn't.

All right. My mic because given up on me, so I guess that's our sign for me to have

Malcolm Collins: a good one, Simone. And I love you to death.

Simone Collins: The computer's telling me to get in the kitchen and make you a sandwich.

Malcolm Collins: Get in the kitchen and make me taquitos and do it right and don't do it wrong because it is expected of you, the perfect woman.

Simone Collins: Hi. And I'll I'll get us started. I'll, I'll we'll take the lead so you can take a breather since you took the lead on the last one.

Malcolm Collins: People love it when you take the lead.

Simone Collins: I don't think so. I think just variation makes people excited. So anyway here I go.

What are you guys up to? I, I to get, oh, there is a clothes storm out. Ah,

no, I, oh, you like, [00:48:00] right? Oh, yeah, yeah. Show her again. Okay. Why me do it again? I'm gonna do it again. I want even bigger and bigger than it was before. Ring store. Oh no. Closed door. Ah,

Indy really likes that. Yeah. She seems to like putting all the laundry away too. Yeah. He really likes Andy. Are you gonna be my laundry helper one of these days? He, yeah. She's hard at work. He really likes it. Right. Yeah. Does she like the crate? I think he really is happy, fun with me. I think she is too.

Yeah. Maybe I And Oh, did you win your game? Yeah. Good job, friend. Thank you. You [00:49:00] proud of you. Thanks for playing with your sister buddy. Yeah. So you don't have to play do that to him like, well, she gets bored with just me. She wants her brother. All right. You keep having fun.