Y, i like to tell people this about pod casting, which is what i do. And i got this question a lot, especially when i was, when i was working at npr. But i still get this question from time to time, because it seems like it's perfect just talk about interesting stuff for a small amount of time each day or each week, and that's really it. And i got a kick at it at one time, because when i was at mpr, i was doing a daily show that ran for ten minutes each day. And my cohost was stacy van smith, who was on the show with me. And this was, to that point, easily the hardest i had ever worked. And one of sta 's friends went to her and said, so your podcast is ten minutes a day. What do you and cardiff do with the rest of your day? It's like a, ohy god. Like it. It's, it's a ton of work that you don't see. And even like the interview that you and i are having right now, before, just to set it up, there was a lot of scheduling involved and things of that nature. It was making sure that the studio space was available. There was of course the background part of it, which is like reading your books, which i love doing, but i also have to do it with an eye towards, like, what would make for some interesting topics to talk about. It's not like just sitting back and relaxing and absorbing it that way. And then after you and i talk, right amy keen, our executive producer, and i are going to like, do a content at it, which takes like a full day. And then later we'll mix it up. Well, go back and forth with the sound engineer to get the final version of it ready, and then we have to fill out the web site and so forth. There's all this stuff that goes into it. And i will say, the glory of it is what's happening right now itis the ability to talk to somebody about awesome ideas, somebody that i admire, whose work i really respect. It's awesome. It does make it all worth it. But it's only like a 60 to 90 minute part of the week. All the other time goes into getting the show out, and nobody sees it. All they see at the tail end of it is anyways, my point is, i think even something like podcast can, in some sense be a glamour object. And so can any kind of work that from the outside seems great. Well, if you don't talk to the people who actually do it, it might not be. It might not be what you think it is. R i r, by the way, i don't want any of this to come across like i'm complaining aloud. Ik, now, aviat, we're

talking about is when glamor works, when it's a positive, but it still hides things. There are also times when glamor is a negative and can take you down a destructive path or even take whole societies down a destructive path. But it can be a positive. Just that there's always something left out.