Intro

Patricia and Christian talk with recovering mainstream economist Katy Shields about the ways in which economists and their backers have warped global politics to the point where we and our life-sustaining planet have become secondary concerns to the primary goal of “growth”.

Please help sustain this podcast! 

Patrons get early access to all episodes and patron-only episodes: https://www.patreon.com/MMTpodcast

All our episodes in chronological order: https://www.patreon.com/posts/43111643

All our patron-only episodes: https://www.patreon.com/posts/57542767

LIVE EVENTS!

Modern Money Lab UK weekend seminars in London featuring Dr Steven Hail: 

• June 21st & 22nd (White City) - Rethinking Capitalism
• June 28th & 29th (Finsbury Park) - Money, Government and the Public Interest - Beyond The Deficit Myth

Details and tickets: https://modernmoneylab.org.uk/events/

JOIN PATRICIA’S MMT ACTIVIST NETWORK (MMT UK): https://actionnetwork.org/forms/activist-registration-form

MMT: THE MOVIE!

• “Finding The Money”, a documentary by Maren Poitras featuring Stephanie Kelton is now available worldwide to rent or buy: https://findingthemoney.vhx.tv/products/finding-the-money
• Updates on worldwide screenings of “Finding The Money” can be found here: https://findingmoneyfilm.com/where-to-watch/
• To arrange a screening of “Finding The Money”, apply here: https://findingmoneyfilm.com/host-a-screening/

STUDY THE ECONOMICS OF SUSTAINABILITY!

• Details of Modern Money Lab’s online graduate, postgraduate and standalone courses in economics are here: https://modernmoneylab.org.au/

Relevant to this episode:

• “How captured economics stole our climate — and what we can do about it” by Katy Shields: https://medium.com/@katyrshields/how-captured-economics-stole-our-climate-and-what-we-can-do-about-it-f9070ba6ae93 
• Regenerative Economy Lab - upcoming workshops in July (Berlin), September (Vienna) and November (Vienna) 2025: https://gala-ebook-09756497.figma.site/ 
• Beyond Growth Forum (Vienna) - 13 June 2025: https://www.global2000.at/events/beyond-growth-forum-2025 
• “Tipping Point: The True Story of the Limits to Growth” podcast by Katy Shields: https://tippingpoint-podcast.com/ 
• “Rethinking My Economics” by Angus Deaton https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/fandd/issues/2024/03/Symposium-Rethinking-Economics-Angus-Deaton 
• Rethinking Economics - student campaign achievements” https://www.rethinkeconomics.org/impact/

For an intro to MMT:

• Our first three episodes: https://www.patreon.com/posts/41742417
• Episode 126 - Dirk Ehnts: How Banks Create Money: https://www.patreon.com/posts/62603318

Quick MMT reads:

• Warren’s Mosler’s MMT white paper: http://moslereconomics.com/mmt-white-paper/
• Steven Hail’s quick MMT explainer: https://theconversation.com/explainer-what-is-modern-monetary-theory-72095
• Quick explanation of government debt and deficit: “Some Numbers Are Big. Let Me Help You Get Over It”: https://christreilly.com/2020/02/17/some-numbers-are-big-let-me-help-you-get-over-it/

For a short, non-technical, free ebook explaining MMT, download Warren Mosler’s “7 Deadly Innocent Frauds Of Economic Policy” here: http://moslereconomics.com/wp-content/powerpoints/7DIF.pdf

Episodes on monetary operations: 

• Episode 20 - Warren Mosler: The MMT Money Story (part 1): https://www.patreon.com/posts/28004824
• Episode 126 - Dirk Ehnts: How Banks Create Money: https://www.patreon.com/posts/62603318
• Episode 13 - Steven Hail: Everything You Always Wanted To Know About Banking, But Were Afraid To Ask: https://www.patreon.com/posts/41790887
• Episode 43 - Sam Levey: Understanding Endogenous Money: https://www.patreon.com/posts/35073683 
• Episode 84 - Andrew Berkeley, Richard Tye & Neil Wilson: An Accounting Model Of The UK Exchequer (Part 1): https://www.patreon.com/posts/46352183
• Episode 86 - Andrew Berkeley, Richard Tye & Neil Wilson: An Accounting Model Of The UK Exchequer (Part 2): https://www.patreon.com/posts/46865929 

For more on Quantitative Easing:

• Episode 59 - Warren Mosler: What Do Central Banks Do?: https://www.patreon.com/posts/39070023
• Episode 143 - Paul Sheard: What Is Quantitative Easing?: https://www.patreon.com/posts/71589989?pr=true 

Episodes on inflation:

• Episode 7: Steven Hail: Inflation, Price Shocks and Other Misunderstandings: https://www.patreon.com/posts/41780508
• Episode 65 - Phil Armstrong: Understanding Inflation: https://www.patreon.com/posts/40672678
• Episode 104 - John T Harvey: Inflation, Stagflation & Healing The Nation: https://www.patreon.com/posts/52207835
• Episode 123 - Warren Mosler: Understanding The Price Level And Inflation: https://www.patreon.com/posts/59856379
• Episode 128 - L. Randall Wray & Yeva Nersisyan: What’s Causing Accelerating Inflation? Pandemic Or Policy Response?: https://www.patreon.com/posts/63776558

Our Job Guarantee episodes: 

• Episode 4 - Fadhel Kaboub: What is the Job Guarantee?: https://www.patreon.com/posts/41742701
• Episode 47 - Pavlina Tcherneva: Building Resilience - The Case For A Job Guarantee: https://www.patreon.com/posts/36034543
• Episode 148 - Pavlina Tcherneva: Why The Job Guarantee Is Core To Modern Monetary Theory: https://www.patreon.com/posts/episode-148-why-73211346
• Quick read: Pavlina Tcherneva’s Job Guarantee FAQ page: https://pavlina-tcherneva.net/job-guarantee-faq/

More on government bonds (and “vigilantes”):

• Episode 30 - Steven Hail: Understanding Government Bonds (Part 1):https://www.patreon.com/posts/29621245
• Episode 31 - Steven Hail: Understanding Government Bonds (Part 2): https://www.patreon.com/posts/29829500
• Episode 143 - Paul Sheard: What Is Quantitative Easing?: https://www.patreon.com/posts/71589989?pr=true
• Episode 147 - Dirk Ehnts: Do Markets Control Our Politics?: https://www.patreon.com/posts/episode-147-dirk-72906421
• Episode 144 - Warren Mosler: The Natural Rate Of Interest Is Zero: https://www.patreon.com/posts/71966513
• Episode 145 - John T Harvey: What Determines Currency Prices?: https://www.patreon.com/posts/72283811?pr=true

More on bank runs banking regulation: 

• Episode 162 - Warren Mosler: Anatomy Of A Bank Run: https://www.patreon.com/posts/80157783?pr=true
• Episode 163 - L. Randall Wray: Breaking Banks - The Fed’s Magical Monetarist Thinking Strikes Again: https://www.patreon.com/posts/80479169?pr=true
• Episode 165 - Robert Hockett: Sparking An Industrial Renewal By Building Banks Better: https://www.patreon.com/posts/81084983?pr=true
• MMT founder Warren Mosler’s Proposals for the Treasury, the Federal Reserve, the FDIC, and the Banking System: https://neweconomicperspectives.org/2010/02/warren-moslers-proposals-for-treasury.html

MMT Events And Courses:

• More information about Professor Bill Mitchell’s MMTed project (free public online courses in MMT) here: http://www.mmted.org/
• Details of Modern Money Lab’s online graduate and postgraduate courses in MMT are here: https://modernmoneylab.org.au/

Order the Gower Initiative’s “Modern Monetary Theory - Key Insights, Leading Thinkers”: https://www.e-elgar.com/shop/gbp/modern-monetary-theory-9781802208085.html

MMT Academic Resources compiled by The Gower Initiative for Modern Money Studies: https://www.zotero.org/groups/2251544/mmt_academic_resources_-_compiled_by_the_gower_initiative_for_modern_money_studies

MMT scholarship compiled by New Economic Perspectives: http://neweconomicperspectives.org/mmt-scholarship

A list of MMT-informed campaigns and organisations worldwide: https://www.patreon.com/posts/47900757

We are working towards full transcripts, but in the meantime, closed captions for all episodes are available on our YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEp_nGVTuMfBun2wiG-c0Ew/videos

Show notes: https://www.patreon.com/posts/episode-198-how-130801058