Jordan is a leader in the space specifically of smartly purchasing promo spots for his own show on other podcasts, which he recoups via audience growth and then selling ads on his show. So he's still hustling in a way, but in on his own terms, it seems. And you know, speaking of podcasters, another podcaster I interviewed for the show is Jonathan Fields, a dear friend of mine. He talked about his own experiences with burnout and his really were focused around this question of perfection,.

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