The Tension Between Sacred Objects and Idolatry in Religious Practices

In this insightful conversation, Simone and the host dive deep into the misunderstood world of Opus Dei, breaking down the myths and misconceptions popularized by media, such as “The Da Vinci Code.” They discuss the origins, beliefs, and practices of Opus Dei, contrasting them with those of the Jesuits. The conversation reveals Opus Dei's focus on personal sanctity through daily work and responsibilities, and its appeal to lay Catholics. In stark contrast, the Jesuits' history of social justice, intellectual pursuits, and perceived left-leaning tendencies are examined. The discussion also touches on the dramatic historical power struggles within the Catholic Church, highlighting moments when Jesuits' influence rivaled that of the Pope. Moreover, how these factions may reflect broader societal dynamics between progressives and conservatives is analyzed. The episode concludes with musings on the future of these groups and a humorous personal exchange about family life.

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] Hello Simone. I'm excited to be talking to you today. Today we are gonna be talking about the Opus Day. You know, the villain from the Da Vinci Code. That is the exposure

Simone Collins: like 99% of people have,

Malcolm Collins: and most people know that they, they, they practice mortification or some of them do, where they like hurt themselves or like where like chains that cut into them when they wa even like famous ones.

There's like a famous female author who's Opus Day who wears like a chain. And you may think that these guys are. Crazy. But what you will learn as we go into the opus day is they might be the only sane Catholics there are. You, they are definitely in the Catholic, and we'll see how much we have an opportunity to get in the Opus Day verse Jesuit mindset.

They are definitely the good guy side. And the Jesuits are definitely the bad guy side.

Simone Collins: You go so hard on Catholics. .

Malcolm Collins: And I think you, Simone, specifically, are gonna love the Opus Day as you learn more about them. Yeah. Even more than you think you do right now.

Simone Collins: Really?

Malcolm Collins: So the Opus Day was established in 1928, so very, [00:01:00] very young. Wow.

Simone Collins: I would've guessed like. Late 16 hundreds early S hundred. That's crazy.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. When Saint Joseph Maria Escoria, I, I'm gonna pronounce that wrong, we'll just call him Escoria had a spiritual insight that ordinary Christians could become saints by living their face fully in their daily routines. Wow. Especially through their work. He envisioned a past to holiness that didn't require withdrawing from the world into a monastery or covet.

Convent, but instead embrace secular life as a means of sanctification. The vision was formerly recognized by the Catholic Church in 1982 when Pope John Paul II designated Opus Day as a personal re giving its special status to carry out its mission globally, so it didn't become like official until 1982.

Wow.

Simone Collins: Sounds a little bit like Maana Buddhism or. This premise is you don't have to become like a [00:02:00] reclusive monk in order to make religious progress. It's interesting.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, but I, I actually view it quite different. I'd actually say it's very similar to techno puritanism as techno puritanism relates to work, which is the idea that you should treat your work and your duty in life with religious fervor that you should be as dedicated.

To your job. If your job and you, and you should have a job that attempts to improve the world by your philosophical framework and you should treat that. With the extremeness and with the fervor that a monk or hermit who has shut themselves off from society oh, treats their own seclusion.

Simone Collins: Ah. So, whereas Maha Buddhism kind of allows for normalism, it's like, no, no, no.

In everyday life you can do it, but also you're gonna be a completely weirdo. By the way No, no, no, no. This is, this is

Malcolm Collins: like, you need to be max about your job. Okay. You need to be max about the most intense, an open state belief. You have a, a duty to be happy to other [00:03:00] people so that you don't bring other people down, you know?

I love that. To, to, and we, we do this too, that you have responsibility for your mood. You have a responsibility for how you affect other people. Yeah. And all of this responsibility is an intent, religious responsibility. Hmm. Hmm. So sanctification of work members are encouraged to perform their daily tasks, whether professional, domestic or otherwise, with excellence as a way to serve God and others.

So like you are supposed to be a mother as extremely as like a a hundred percent. 107% as like somebody would be a a in a monastery or something like that. Ah, and you're not supposed to be very different from other Catholic factions. You as a mother, if you're doing it a hundred percent, are not less than the none in the covenant,

Simone Collins: right?

Because, or a convent. You're making the same amount of sacrifices and engaging in the same amount of discipline. I like that, like basically apply the religious fervor and discipline that you would see in a convent. [00:04:00] Or in monastery to your everyday life, and why shouldn't you? That's so much better.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Prayer and spiritual direction. A structured spiritual life known as a plan of life includes practices like mass at the rosary, mental prayer and spiritual reading. Spiritual direction from a priest or trained layperson helps members grow in their faith. So basically you're supposed to sit down with somebody and plan out your life very much like we would suggest we something as in our tradition.

Wow. . Okay. How are they different from other Catholics? Opus Day members are fully Catholic and do not differ from other Catholics in terms of, well, as of what,

Simone Collins: 1984.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, no, no. This is modern. However, approach to living out their faith sets them apart.

They have an emphasis on the laity. While many Catholic groups focus on religious life EG monks and nuns, obu de prioritizes the lay people sanctifying the world from within. So, while other religious orders within Catholicism are like, go the most extreme, separate yourself from the world, everything like [00:05:00] that, even the monks and nuns of the opus day.

Or supposed to focus on the lay person and it's service to helping lay people be at their like same level of holiness and, and saintliness. That's the goal of these individuals not to have some sort of a separate life integration with daily life. Their spirituality is deeply rooted in ordinary activities, contrasted with traditions that might emphasize monastic retreat or extraordinary penance.

Devotion to church teaching. They have a particular devotion to the Pope and the magisterium, the church's teaching authority, which. Which reinforces their unity was the broader Catholic community. They believe they have to have a daily massing communion. So they have to go to mass as frequently as possible.

Preferably daily. Wow. That's a lot. If you have a job rosary and mental prayer, reciting the rosary and spending time in personal prayer each day. So they're really focused on like their routines and it's a lot what people's Yeah. Look [00:06:00] weird. Spiritual reading, confession, regular reading a scripture or spiritual books and frequent confession.

But anyway, when I say look weird, you would know that to us this is a good thing. Yes, yes. 'cause this is how religions survive. Fertility collapse and survive. Deconversion. They have a concept that you've told me about, called the heroic Minute. A practice remembers rise immediately upon waking, saying, serve am or I will serve to offer their day to God.

So you're not allowed to stay in bed. You're not allowed to procrastinate. You shum outta bed the moment you wake up. And this is, I think, a really good way to relate. I mean, it's the way I try to wake up when I'm having, you know, when I'm in, in, in the zone I won't say I always meet my.

Expectations of myself. But I think it's a very good training in terms of how to relate to things. Yeah. Now they're, they're also known for engaging in something called a a mortification. So this may involve something like a cl, a spiked chain or a discipline, a small whip, or used for [00:07:00] voluntary self mortification.

This is. Injuring yourself. This is not used for injuring yourself. Like the injuring isn't the point. It's used for building more self-control and emotional self-control so that you have more dominion over yourself and you can interact with the world in a more like, you know. A monk who's just like separating themselves versus society versus somebody who's got like a, a spike chain attached to their leg while they're serving their office job.

You know, who's really making more of a sacrifice for God. I think this also

Simone Collins: feeds into the, the social scientific theory that ego depletion is culturally specific, that in American culture, we're like, oh, I've. I've had to think so hard today. I just have completely lost all of my self-control and now I'm going to eat a pint of ice cream.

Versus in India for example, people are like, oh, I've had such a tough day today. I've had to do so much work now I should do something else hard because I'm really in the zone. And the opus day are certainly in the latter camp where they're like, I'm gonna right way.

Malcolm Collins: The study she's [00:08:00] mentioning shows it works like the Indians when they've actually done a lot of stuff.

No, basically,

Simone Collins: if you believe. That doing hard things has warmed you up to do more hard things, then you will be able to do more hard things If you believe in ego depletion, that if you've made a lot of tough decisions and exhausted your ability to ex exercise self-control, then you will lose self-control.

So it's, it's very much a placebo effect influenced by your culture. Yeah. Which again, is why it's so toxic to have an external locus of control.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And, and what's interesting is how the Opus Day communicates this because like, okay, if you're a nun or you're a priest, you know you're going to school for this.

Or you're in a convent, or you're in a monastery and that's where you're learning all of this, where the opus day and I can understand why there's such a young movement has to. Like train lay people in living this lifestyle. Yeah. Which means that they're doing retreats, they're doing like over overnight things sometimes.

Yeah. They're doing classes where both priests and lay people will teach these as well within the opus day. Wow. Where you're going [00:09:00] to learn deeper Catholic theology and the way like a monk might, but still engaging with your daily life.

Simone Collins: Wow. It is life on hard mode. It's, it's lean in Catholicism edition.

I, I like it. Everything you're saying so far. Yeah. Yes. It's de definitely. Okay. It sounds really difficult, but it appeals.

Malcolm Collins: No, it does appeal. So now we gotta talk about the bad guys. Okay. The Jesuits,

Simone Collins: the Jesuit, the Jesuits, the Jesuits,

Malcolm Collins: Or the Society of Jesus established in 1540s.

So they're actually old the, the Jesuits are a religious order known for their work in education, intellectual pursuits and missionary efforts.

They run schools and universities worldwide and are deeply engaged in social justice and dialogue with modern culture. Okay. Their spirituality rooted in Ignatian discernment, emphasizes finding God in all things and adapting to contemporary needs. Which sometimes gives them a reputation as more [00:10:00] progressive.

Post Vatican II Dynamics, the Second Vatican Council. This was in 1962 to 1965 with the turning point for the Catholic Church. Introducing reforms to engage more was the modern world, which sparked debates between those who embraced the changes and those who preferred continuity was tradition. The Jesuits under leaders like Pedro Aropa the Jesuits leaned into Vatican II call for renewal, focusing on social justice.

Ecumenical dialogue and adapting the church to contemporary challenges. The Jesuits even explored controversial ideas like liberation theology, which emphasizes justice for the poor and has been criticized by conservatives for its political undertones. Essentially, their, their elitist educated communists.

Oh

Simone Collins: dear,

Malcolm Collins: that's a nice way of saying that. No, no. But they were literally communists. Like Jesuits were socialists and communists historically.

They are an intellectual elite class, which believes that the sort of priesthood has a special position that the laity can't really serve [00:11:00] and that the priesthood should be made up of the intellectual elite.

And, and, and supported by the laity the Opus Day. Well, not opposed to Vatican. Second. Opus Day has emphasized traditional practices like devotion to the Eucharist and rosary. Mm-hmm. And cautious approach to rapid change. It's right. The prominence, especially after becoming a personal ture, was seen by some as a counterweight to the more progressive faction.

The Opus Day, its spirituality centers around sanctifying everyday work and personal holiness. It encourages a structured prayer life and obedience to church teachings often appealing to those who value, tradition and discipline. Hmm. It focuses heavily on the role of lay people in spreading their face.

Jesuits, their Ignatian spirituality is out of discernment, finding God's will within all circumstances and intellectual engagement. They're known for their adaptability, running universities and addressing social issues, which can lead to a more open and exploratory approach to [00:12:00] face. A few issues. So Liberation theology, so this is Jesuits.

Some Jesuits like Gustav Gutierrez were key figures in liberation Theology, which blends Catholic Social teaching was a focus on systematic change for the oppressed Opus Day was this emphasis on personal sanctity over political activism has generally been more critical of this movement aligning with Vatican critiques of its Marxist element.

Ecumenicalism and modernity. Jesuits are known for interfaith dialogue and engaging with secular culture, sometimes pushing boundaries. Opus Day tends to prioritize fidelity to Catholic doctrine and traditional devotions and can make it appear less open to such engagement. What's really interesting is I think that the Jesuit Opus Day split in many ways for told the split.

Between like modern conservatives and modern progressives where the progressives are a party of intellectual and bureaucratic elites. And the conservatives are who, who want to change things, who want [00:13:00] to adapt culture as quickly as possible. Whereas the conservatives, while newer, like the new right, is a newer party than this progressive, right?

Is a party of personal responsibility. Personal discernment and returning to traditions. Mm-hmm. And not interfering with, with, with people's lives so that you can maximize your own life.

Sorry, I want to build this into the game world. Oh. No. No, I really like this idea where I think, you know, earlier I had the church splitting up in one church, forming in Mexico, and then the other church forming around the Vatican. And I want to do a a, a, the headed, the Jesuits, the black pope, ends up essentially through shady dealings, taking over the Catholic church.

And then, you know, you know, legalizing. Women in the, in the, in the, in the priesthood, et cetera, gay marriage, a bunch of stuff that your normal Opus Day member would never allow. Mm-hmm. And then have the Cardinals who are affiliated with the, with the Opus Day faction refocusing around the [00:14:00] Latin American church.

So it would be a schism, but it was a schism that would make sense given the modern conflicts the church is already have. Yeah, that makes sense.

I will end up posting the new faction to the Discord, but I think they're pretty dope.

We tried to lean hard into the idea of while there was a schism in the church, it was a schism in which , , the side that is the Catholics that you would encounter in the game is the one was the most claimed to apostolic succession. And they have transformed sort of the way the religion is practice into this concept of living martyrdom.

I. Which means that essentially everyone, , dresses and lives their lives as if they're living under the priesthood,

but was much more

fervor than you would see was in the existing church.

Now you could say here, well then just don't have the Vatican fall. You know, the problem is, is. In almost every timeline I can see that happening. Now, specifically in Italy [00:15:00] right now, we have a fertility rate of only 1.18. That means even if it stays at its existing fertility, and keep in mind it's fallen every year for the past 16 years, I think.

For every a hundred Italians, there will only be 20 great-grandchildren. I don't see how that civilization can stay stable or we can expect it to continue existing. However, I could potentially see iterations of Catholic civilization staying stable in Latin America, which is where we have the church refocusing.

Malcolm Collins: And keep in mind the, the current Pope is a Jesuit. Oh, really? Oh,

Simone Collins: yes.

Malcolm Collins: The, the, he's catching a

Simone Collins: hippie from trad casts though. So now I guess that Oh, yeah. Provides more context.

Malcolm Collins: So, the founder of Opus Day was canonized, declared a saint in 2002. Hmm. Just 27 years after his death in 1975. Wow. The one that shows how new they are. The founder of the Opus Day. By 2002 had only been dead for 27 years. Wow. He was the Saint Dead. [00:16:00] This event symbolized opus day's rapid rise and prominence within the Catholic Church, particularly under Pope John Paul ii, who strongly supported the organization.

I. Opus Day known for its conservative and traditional approach to face emphasizes the sanctification of daily life, often appealing to lay people, and aligning with a structured devotional spirituality. In contrast, the Jesuits, a religious order known for their intellectual rigor and progressive leanings.

Focus on education and social justice were perceived as having lost some influence in the decades following Vatican II and the 1960s attempts to modernize the church. Escobar's canonization occurred so quickly. It was seen by some of the church as favoring opus state's traditionalism over the gero, more liberal stance.

It was an unprecedented spade. His canonization is just. 27 years, one of the fastest canonization in modern history. Yeah. Second only to Mother Theresa. Typically, the process takes decades or even centuries, beginning as a mandatory five year waiting period after the death followed by an extensive [00:17:00] investigation into the candidate's life in miracles.

Right? This rapid timeline was exceptional. Strong papal support. Pope John Paul II was. Who personally in Minor. This guy and Opus Day's Mission played a key role in fast tracking the process. His support reflects priority of promoting models of holiness for laypeople, which had laid with Opus day's focus.

But it made the canonization appear unusually driven by Papal Initiative. Miracles attributed the two miracles that were credited to him. Which are a requirement for sainthood. One involved in nuns recovering from a rare skin disease, and the other a doctor's healing from radiation exposure.

While these were officially verified, the speed and the process raised questions among some questions among Jesuits who really did not like that he was canonized. Yeah, I don't know,

Simone Collins: like a skin condition. Suddenly both of these are, are, are unexpected physical changes in response to. Medical conditions, like there are so many of those that take place to attribute those to a single [00:18:00] person.

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know.

Malcolm Collins: Well, we'll have a, a separate episode where we'll go deeper on the, the secondary part of this, which is okay, the, the black Pope and the Jesuits. So the Jesuits were all black and their leader, which is elected by the Jesuits, has a lot of power in trying to attempt to essentially like manipulate who gets elected Pope and stuff like that.

And, and, and what happens within the Catholic organizations because like obviously he has a lot of power. The Jesuits have been around for a very long time and so have collected a ton of money. And so they are a very wealthy organization. They also have positioned if power was in secular society, so if you're talking about like Catholic universities or just elite educational institutions more broadly, you're going to see Jesuits in positions of power across these.

Whereas Opus Day have focused much more on empowering lay people outside of the clergy. Mm-hmm. Very much newer organization, which doesn't deal as well with accumulating [00:19:00] power. But I would bet if you're looking at fertility rates between organizations affiliated with each of these brands, Jesuits are gonna be a giant fertility sink to have any area.

Yeah. And the day are gonna be a ti a huge fertility boost, having anywhere around you.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah, because it sounds like the OPAs day are just about getting things done. Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And it provides a way for the Opus Day to potentially build factions that are just entirely based around family and having kids and, and focusing their, and it would just completely be cogent with their existing teachings.

Absolutely. Which means that long run, they'll likely win. And as that becomes more clear to the Jesuits. As has happened with organizations in the past like the Gray Friars and stuff like that. This is like a thing that constantly happens with the Catholics, where, remember how I told you that the Catholic orders were like creating a new, because I argued that religions typically become softer as time goes on.

Mm-hmm. And they become more like the urban monoculture as time goes on. Yeah. And so you need to create [00:20:00] new young orders which basically act like new religions, which then reinject these like stem cells into like the heart of the Catholic religion, keeping it young. The Opus Day really represent that they are the youngest of the orders where the Jesuits, this isn't the first order that this happened to.

I even think when the Jesuits were first created, they were replacing another order, I wanna say the gray fryers that had become super wealthy and indolent and focused on intellectualism. Wow. And focused on. Like disconnected from the people because as orders get older, they undergo the process that all organizations do.

Yeah. Which is becoming softer capitulating to the urban monoculture.

By the way, my memory here was correct. It was the Gray Friars, also known as the Franciscans who were founded in the 12 hundreds originally around, you know, extreme poverty, not owning anything, et cetera, and had become incredibly wealthy and elitist by the times that the Jesuits were founded. , and so you see this cycle where an order is founded.

At first they focus on, you know, austerity and, and, Faith and [00:21:00] then over time they become wealthier and more intellectually elitist and more interested in appealing to the status hierarchies of the secular world.

Malcolm Collins: You can read our book, the Pragmatist Guide to Religion, if you wanna learn more about what it means for a religion to get soft. But, but they as an order have become soft. And the question , is are they going to fight against this?

Mm-hmm. If, if a Pope turned against them. That'd be fine. And, and Popes have against the Jesuits in the past. In fact a Pope in the past because the black Pope was accumulating so much power. This is ahead of the Jesuits. A Pope inserted and then created a tradition of inserting a pope chosen by the Vatican rather than voted on by the Jesuit.

Oh drama. Okay. Very drama.

Yeah. Let's just go into what I collected about the black Pope, because I think you'll find this.

Yeah.

Simone Collins: Okay. So yeah, tell me, tell me about the black Pope.

Malcolm Collins: So first the outfit. Why is he called the black pope? The Jesuits wear plain black [00:22:00] coss a stark contrast to the pope's pristine white robes. Mm. Since their founding in 1540, the Jesuits have been the Catholic intellectual heavyweights, educators, missionaries and influencers.

Mm-hmm. The leaders clout has sometimes rivaled the popes, at least in the eyes of his admirers and enemies. Okay. But. Back in the 16th and 17th centuries Protestant nation saw the Jesuits Pope as a secret army, loyal to a fault and dangerously clever because they were the intellectuals and they did dress in all black.

And you can imagine how that looked to the Protestants, right? Yeah. But even Catholics, I actually learned about the concept of the black Pope and all of this at the prenatal con from a actually an opus day. Who was like, Hey, you need to look into the Jesuits. Ooh. They've been trying to take over the Catholics for a long time.

Wow. A lot of this stuff that you see as broadly Catholic is just Jesuits.

Simone Collins: That's interesting. Wow.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. The, the, so picture this, it's 1773 and the Jesuits are at the height of their influence running schools, advising kings and spreading [00:23:00] Catholicism worldwide. But they've made enemies, European monarchs, jealous of their sway and annoyed by their meddling pressured.

Pope Clement, the 14th to shut them down. He caves issuing a decree that suppresses the Jesuit order entirely. Officially, they're disbanded, but here's the twist. In places like Russia where the Pope's order isn't enforced, the Jesuits don't just fade away. They keep going. Led temporarily by the vicar general stand in black popes who defy the suppression turn a conspiracy minded observer.

This looks like the Jesuits summing their nose at the Pope. No, that's exactly what it is. Oh my God. Okay, so the Jesuits were disbanded in the 1770s. Okay. But in places where the Pope's power didn't hold the Jesuits, elected leaders kept running iterations of this order.

Simone Collins: How interesting. Hmm. And then

Malcolm Collins: Years later by the 19th century, [00:24:00] the Jesuits are quietly reinstated under Pope Pius the.

Seventh in 1814 to outsiders. This mate seem what? What? No, that's exactly what happened

Simone Collins: to outsiders. Yeah. Is there a butt after that? Like, it may have looked like this, but it wasn't. That's exactly what it was. It was

Malcolm Collins: a rogue religious organization that was well, but is there a butt, like, do

Simone Collins: they explain why it isn't what it looks like?

Malcolm Collins: No, I mean, I'm sure that the, the, this is from an ai, so the AI is just trained on Jesuit writing, obviously because they control the laws, but they due to having too much power and fighting the Pope's interest were banned by the Pope, then use the black Pope as their alternate pope. Oh, good heavens. Kept operating and were reinstated later.

They literally are a separate religious organization operating within the Catholic church. That was too powerful to be eradicated, to stop. That's, that's [00:25:00] crazy. But hold on.

So I wanted to be as fair as possible and try to look at the way a Catholic would see this. What they would say is that, well, the Jesuits weren't actually disbanded because the Pope thought they were becoming too powerful. They were disbanded because they were annoying local. I. rulers, which, okay, I guess I can get behind that.

But then isn't the pope supposed to be God's hand on Earth? How is he so easily bullied by local rulers? Then you have the, the secondary situation, which is to say that, well, technically they weren't disbanded. See, the Russians, the Russian Jesuits found themselves in a. Legal gray area, they weren't directly disobeying the pope since the suppression decree hadn't been officially promulgated in Russia and that papal documents technically needed to be officially promulgated in a region to take effect according to the legal practices at the time.

Now, for me, I'm like, yeah, but like it doesn't matter if it's illegal or not. What matters is what God wanted, and apparently God. Operates through apostolic succession and the Pope is God's [00:26:00] hand on earth. So you think that God's like, okay with this sort of technicality, I, I don't know. To me this reads like somebody doesn't really believe their religion.

If they're like, oh, well technicality here. and then you have this situation of, apparently there was one instance where Pope Pius the seventh did. acknowledge the existence of the Jesuits in Russia in 1783, which is seen as approval, and then they were later restored and that the faction in Russia continued to exist, gave them the ability to claim this historical continuity.

so that's how they're like, well, you see, it was a good thing and we're all just gonna forget that this happened.

Malcolm Collins: That's not the only power grab that they've done. Okay. In the 20th century, inter Father Pedro or arpa, the Superior General, or black Pope from.

1965 to 1983 under his rope, the Jesuits go rogue. They dive into liberation theology, a firing mix of faith and social justice that has them backing revolutionaries in Latin America. What. [00:27:00] Yeah. By 1981, ARPA suffers a stroke. And Pope John Paul II sees at the moment, he doesn't wait for the Jesuits to elect a new back Pope.

He appoints his own delegate to run the order. He moved Dub Papal Marshall Law. It was unprecedented. And many Jesuits complained about this. So, he was backing socialist revolutionaries, the head of the Jesuits in Latin America. Hmm. I see. And then we have what happened in 2005 where the Jesuits tried to prevent the election of a Pope.

So after John Paul's II's death in April, 2005, the College of Cardinals convened to elected his successor Rex Retinger a German theologian and close ally of John Paul ii. Oh, remember, Tinger? Yeah, the back, the Opus Day faction. Oh. And he emerged as the front runner. However, not everyone was on board with this candidacy.

Mm-hmm. A blocking strategy. A group of cardinals reportedly included some of Europe's and Latin Americans [00:28:00] wanted to prevent rats nerve from securing the two thirds majority needed to win. Mm-hmm. They rallied rot around Burel, Guo an Argentinian Jesuit known for his humility and focus on the poor, an alternative candidate.

He, the guy who they rallied him again wasn't necessarily campaigning for the paper that he himself, in fact accounts suggest he was uneasy about being used in this way. So they're like not even particularly moral people in the way they're doing this. Like this guy did not want this to happen.

But they got through this. Hmm. Then I was like, okay. But is there any evidence that the Jesuits actually do offer, like, like, like have outsized control within the organization? It's like, well, they haven't just

Simone Collins: presented a ton.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. They're basically a rogue faction that is. Antipas. Well, I mean now they control the papacy.

So like, who's to say the Catholic exclusive? Yeah, you're anti papus

Simone Collins: until you, you're in charge and then Yeah, until

Malcolm Collins: you're in charge. Right. You know, you love it. It's great. It's great. Let institute these reforms throughout the [00:29:00] entire Catholic order. And I think that this is like a generational thing.

I think the church will likely have some major schism if the next Pope is also a Jesuit and continues to take it in this direction. Yeah. And we'll see. 'cause it doesn't

Simone Collins: look like this Pope has a lot longer because of his health issues. I.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And the question is, is because, because like the, the, the bureaucratic branch is always gonna be overwhelmingly Jesuit because they control the elites in the positions of power or Jesuit influenced whereas the lay people who don't vote on Pope, for example, are gonna be overly aligned with the Opus day.

Yeah. Now long term, I think the Opus Day faction ends up gaining control as this happened a few times in Castle history where a new a sort of order needs to come in and another order needs to. But the question is, is can that happen before the, the Pope ends up taking the church in a theological direction that is untenable to your average Opus Day aligned individual?

Simone Collins: Yikes. That's wow. I'm glad that [00:30:00] the Opus Day member that you met at Nacon told you to look a little deeper because, oh my gosh, like this is, we think

Malcolm Collins: we need to do an Opus Day episode for ages though, because like we've always, like, from what I've heard of them, I've always liked them. I think mortification is good.

I think this. Waking up and like, like yelling, like I'm at it is really mentally healthy. I think it's important that they do something that a lot of Catholics don't do, which is theological teaching. Whereas a lot of the way that Catholic sermons go is really focused around ceremony. Mm-hmm. Like I was talking with, you know, at, at NATO Con Newcastle's, famously low fertility these days.

Mm-hmm. Of, of religious sex, Catholic majority countries, Catholic areas. How do you get fertility rates up? Well, a couple at Nacon was like, well, we decided to have a kid long before we had planned on having one. Mm-hmm. Because you know, at church, the, the pastor came in and, and said like, Hey, we're gonna help this couple you know, make sure that they're never in need for childcare, et cetera.

Mm-hmm. And then, you know, when their baby was crying, he goes, you know, if this babies aren't crying, the [00:31:00] church is dying, you know, saying all this to the entire congregation from the pulpit. I mean, they were like, oh. Like, I didn't, I felt like I was doing a bad job at being a mother, but hearing like, oh, let the baby cry, you know, et cetera.

And, and I was, I was talking about this and a Catholic was like, yeah, there's like, my priest would never say that. Like, that's not like a thing that you would do is, is be like, Hey, this couple help them care for their kid. But that is something the Opus Day can do in the way that they do these additional lessons.

This like Sunday School for adults. So

Simone Collins: presumably there are Opus Day. Churches. Like, is that, is that the way it works? Like if we were an Opus Day family? No,

Malcolm Collins: no. They're, they're like I, this is my understanding, but I, I'll look it up in post. Is that you, you go to like retreats and training seminars?

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: They're more, but you're, you're still part of like

Simone Collins: a normal Catholic parish. Yeah. Because I just wonder how, how would you get the community support then that would, you know, make things easier and more sustainable for you?

Malcolm Collins: Well, ops day members could, you know, build out [00:32:00] like, like daycare networks, like this would be really powerful.

And increasing fertility network rates, right? Yeah. Like, okay, you have your job, which you have a, a, a, a, a moral obligation to that is religious. But then on top of that you have a moral obligation. To helping other members of your community. And while the Opus Day wouldn't be, you know, hugely poor, like traditional, like go help random poor people stuff or mm-hmm.

Or socialist revolution stuff, I can see them being a hundred percent on board with let's create free daycares for members of our own parish. Yeah. That, that seems like a very opus day thing to do. Contrasted with the oh, let's, let's just. Try to like be utility accountants and lower net suffering in the world.

Simone Collins: Hmm. Yeah. Which doesn't produce the best of outcomes. It just

Malcolm Collins: happens. Is this a spicy, spicy episode here? Well, I like that you found something nice to say about some Catholics, which is. I've [00:33:00] always been pro opus day from the first time I mentioned you could like search the episode trans. Yeah. But in general you're like, was this pro opus day?

I'm like a really pro opus day. The more you learn, the more you love them. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, they're the only like good Catholic faction now and, and people's like I would ever become. A Catholic based on this? No, I still, no, we don't

Simone Collins: have the disposition necessary to be, yeah.

Malcolm Collins: I, I, I don't, I like, I, I find all the idolatry really hard to, like, even, even like the prayer beads and everything like that, that just trouble even with crosses.

Even the crosses are, I mean, look, as an outsider and I know that like Catholics, like, I'm trying to be like as, as, as, as diplomatic as I can and be like, you guys, I. Believe you are literally eating the savior. Like, like cannibalism. Like it literally, it's not like metaphorically, you think you are literally cannibalizing the literal Messiah.

[00:34:00] We all your, we're eager, eager to feed for sharp in our teeth for the, and

Malcolm Collins: and then you worship to statues of him being tortured. And you wear the device that tortured him on you.

well, that's a little violent.

Can we tone it down? Oh no. Don't be put up. By this snarling they just seem a little murdery right now. Don't worry, honey. Fast staffing.

Malcolm Collins: We struggle with that. It's optically difficult for me to get by. And then you, you worship in these churches that are covered in gold and artwork and paintings and, and all of this idolatry. But we also just

Simone Collins: have, we have trouble using symbolism of any sort.

I don't care if it's a Pokemon card or if it's an image. No, it's not just

Malcolm Collins: that. Like to me it's like literally, ugh. It's literally like Indiana Jones. It's like the obviously wrong choice. [00:35:00] If you have read the Bible, it's like, oh, it's glorious, it's so beautiful. It's like, no, the cup of a carpenter.

Which one is it? You must choose. But choose wisely. For as the true grail will bring you life, the false grail will take it from you.

I'm not a historian. I have no idea what it looks like. Which one is it? Let me choose.

It's more beautiful than I'd ever imagined.

This certainly is the cup of the king of kings. Is happening to me? He chose poor.

[00:36:00] Be made out of gold. That's the cup of a carpenter.

you have chosen wisely.

Malcolm Collins: Anyway.

Mm-hmm. But what were you gonna say when I interrupted you? I'm sorry.

Simone Collins: No, no. Carry on. You're

Malcolm Collins: saying it's like Pokemon cards and we're okay with it even if it's

Simone Collins: No, no. We're, we're not okay with worshiping any kind of object or using any kind of object. I think people would argue it's not idol. I use it as like a place to focus my attention.

Or remind me, but No, no, because there's this, this human intuitive tendency to just start treating objects of meditation as idols over time. It's just, it's

Malcolm Collins: exactly. And you can see why we're wor, I mean, even Catholics would be like, okay, but like, we don't do that. And it's like, yeah, maybe you intellectual [00:37:00] Catholic doesn't do that.

But there's a lot of lay Catholics in the, in the outer parts of this sort of Catholic empire in Latin America and stuff like that, where they are absolutely worshiping the saints. Yeah. And, and then like

Simone Collins: we, we see it happening in, when, whenever we're in Peru, there's various attaches of saints like.

Sitting around and you know, people stop and they pray and they leave things there and mm-hmm. The point I'm making

Malcolm Collins: here is that the reason why this stuff is banned is, is, is you somebody with absolute mental discipline who is absolutely educated on the Bible, might be able to go into a church and be inspired by these things and maintain that mental separation.

Mm-hmm. But your average person, or even let's say 20% of the parishioners aren't gonna be able to do that. Is it worth sacrificing their souls? So that you can and, and keep in mind we have a different relation to the concept of soul. Enjoy an

Simone Collins: aesthetic flourish. Like it's not a deal breaker for you.

I mean, especially if you're not worshiping these things as [00:38:00] idols, you really don't need them at all. You're just like, oh, don't, no, they're nice. They help to inspire. Go look at, look at trees, look at plants. Look at the sky. Look at the night sky, look at the sun. Look at, look at. Well, all of that would still be

Malcolm Collins: idolatry if you're using it as an intermediary,

Simone Collins: right?

But like, if you are, if you need inspiration about the greatness of God, you don't need to see a cathedral. You can look into the eyes of your own child, you know, like, or anything beautiful happening.

Malcolm Collins: That's, yeah. The, the point being is that even Catholics would admit that this has a cost. And, and the question is like, why are they comfortable with that cost?

Like, when I take that in, in combination with all the aesthetic stuff and the, the, the, the bleeding Christ and the church and everything, I, I don't know, like, yeah, it's tough. I struggle. It's tough optically, but I, I will say that the Opus Day, like among Catholics, they seem to be pretty awesome.

Simone Collins: Yeah, well, because I, I think maybe what you seem to like about them a lot is, I mean, we are extremely focused on outcomes.

We're very consequentialist and they seem to [00:39:00] be very focused on,

Malcolm Collins: well, not just that, but I believe in treating your daily work as a, as a, as as sort of a religiou act of worship, calling act, an act of worship and, and productivity as an act of worship. Mm-hmm. And I also really believe in the concept of the lay.

I mean, one of my biggest complaints about the Catholic Church is this like hierarchy of religious authority. And the opus Day, in a way, invert that hierarchy of religious authority pointing out that the lay person can be as much of the same or as, yeah. In that way it is

Simone Collins: very Protestant, isn't it?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. As, as the, as the highest member of a church or as a cardinal. And I think that that is, to me, that that really aligns with my sensibilities and sort of the anti-elitism bit that I have, which is, is I think they really represent that. Yeah. And I think. Represent a way that you can be Catholic.

And you know, we talk about this with techno puritanism is, is that I want people to be able to come to the religion from different faith. And what that means to me is that [00:40:00] if you look at the tracks to be a techno puritan, you don't need to believe in all the tracks. Like you only need to believe, a few, like, like broad things like that we are going to be arguing that God actually exists. That, that you could argue God from looking at repeatable real world things, not like you saying it from yourself. Like just, oh, I, I saw this saying that no one else saw, and that's, or I feel this thing that no one else can feel.

And that god, what was the final one? That all other true face are a true face and should be allowed to coexist. Hmm. And that's something that a, you know, a lot of Catholics are gonna struggle with. But, but that there, there would be a natural alliance between these groups anyway, but, but like the open day, I can see myself aligning with the opus day.

I could never see myself aligning with the Jesuits.

Simone Collins: Well, do you have any data on Opus Day? Fragility.

Malcolm Collins: No, but I can look it up and post. Yeah, I mean, I, I guess your hope then would be, oh, I checked it actually with ai, it didn't have any [00:41:00] data on it. Yeah, it would be good for, it would be really hard to know.

No, I bet you you could collect Opus Day affiliate members, like layperson members that go to these training seminars. Yeah. But do they collect

Simone Collins: things like how many kids do you have? I doubt that you

Malcolm Collins: could start collecting, just do a collection for like a few classes. See how many kids, people over a certain age have and then try to correlate that with a general Catholic fertility rate.

And you might find, I suspect that the Opus Day affiliation is really directly correlated with high fertility.

Simone Collins: I can definitely be done just, I, I doubt that, you know, there's a lot of good info right now, but

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, love you to DeSimone. I don't know if your, your opinion has changed on anything from this.

Simone Collins: I like that you gave me a more realistic picture of them because like so many other people, my only exposure to information about Opus Day, aside from their waking up rituals, which I'd looked up when making a YouTube video, which embarrassingly still sits on this channel, [00:42:00] was from the Da Vinci Code and that pale actor.

Wasn't he supposed to be an albino? Yeah, like whipping himself and being weird and that that is, that, that seems so deviant from what you described. 'cause they're about, you know, and they, they imply that the opus day is this monastic order of extremist isolated crazies. When what you're describing is a.

An order that's all about leaning into the real world and just self-actualization to the max plus a lot of Catholicism, which sounds pretty cool. So I feel like a, a great disservice has been done by the Da Vinci Code, by Dan Brown to all, I don't know, I think the DaVinci code made them look cool. I don't think so.

No, no. It was like just this albino freak trying to stop them. I don't think, at least from reading the book. The book did not give me a very positive impression of the Opus Day. So I still feel, I feel like they were [00:43:00] wronged. Maybe, maybe Dan Brown is a secret Jesuit, or maybe he did book research with Jesuits and didn't.

No. But he is

Malcolm Collins: Urban Monoculture aligned. And Urban Monoculture Oh. Would be more associated with Op Day. Anti-Urban Monoculture is gonna be affiliated with OPAs Day. Mm.

Simone Collins: I could see that. I could, I could. Okay. Fair.

Malcolm Collins: Alright. Love you to death.

Simone Collins: I love you too. For your starch tonight, I presume you want hash browns.

Like it seems like whenever there's a choice, your choice is hash browns. Is that correct?

Malcolm Collins: I'm okay with whatever you feel you have the time to make with the only thing getting to bed early. Oh, yes. 'cause sleep. Oh, listen, getting to bed early is more important than anything else. So big on sleep. So I, I, I, I'd say the difference between rice and hash browns is a maybe 10% difference, not big.

Simone Collins: In fact, I've done, now I can make you hash browns, so I'll do it because I desperately love you. I [00:44:00] just want you to, I want you to know how much I love you. I wish I could do more things. You do

Malcolm Collins: a lot of things

Simone Collins: not good at expressing affection. You're very

Malcolm Collins: good at expressing. You just don't believe I hear it,

Simone Collins: but you taste it.

Is that the thing that matters?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I live my life of, of, of an amazingness with you. You know, I, I get to live a near perfect life. I've been thinking about it again recently, like it's unfair how perfect my life is. Yeah.

Simone Collins: But you, you have a perfect life. 'cause you also, I. Love your family and are a good person and work really hard.

And I, I love that our kids are like that too. Like, right, like indie's been a little bit irritable, but you know what has kept her quiet since I put her down, I'm just, I'm just playing home videos of, of her siblings and that makes her happy again. I. Well, the kids's being dragged around. I love it. Yeah.

It's just like, that's so sweet. She, that's all she wants to see. And then she's, and then she's happy. And that, that is our family, that we are so lucky to love each other and live together. And, you [00:45:00] know, I think there's a lot of people who would have everything you have and not be happy to think that it was a miserable existence.

So. Like the opus day, you choose happiness, you choose cheerfulness, and you choose love. And how could you have all of this? How

Malcolm Collins: could you be married to you and have these kids in this house and not be, I mean, I know a lot of movie stars, like all of them seem unhappy, right? Like they've, they've chosen this life that's like urban monoculture life.

It's so sad. Yeah. Even though they have all this wealth and power, like, you know, Jim Carrey's famous line, you know. I hope you achieve wealth, power in everything you wanted. 'cause then you'll see it What make you happy? Yeah. It's like, well I don't know what you were fighting for Jim Carrey, but like, this makes me happy and fulfilled.

Simone Collins: Yeah. That's pretty darn good.

Malcolm Collins: Maybe, maybe you should have had a big family and gotten married and go to live on a farm.

Simone Collins: Some celebrities seem to do that. They just disappear. Like you never hear from them. You know, you hear from the miserable ones because they're still engaging with the press. I bet that that

Malcolm Collins: one crazy Christian one

Simone Collins: is

Malcolm Collins: happy.

Simone Collins: I. Oh, the who? The drunk driving man? The brave guy. Mel Gibson. Mel Gibson. Mel

Malcolm Collins: Gibson.

Yeah. He is [00:46:00] pretty, pretty. I love the South Park. Take on him.

. Yeah, say what you want about Mel Gibson, but the son of a knows story structure. Get the video tape and do a background check on everyone in it. Ah, yes.

Malcolm Collins: Like, this guy's crazy, but damn does he know story structure.

Simone Collins: Oh, I praise from Stone and Parker, right?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I love you,

Simone Collins: Vanessa. Love. I love you too. Bye. Bye. Bye. You hang up.

Bye.

Guy Secret and Octavia's, a Red Army guy. And Red Army guys respond. I know. Is it another Red Army guy?

Oh.

I, I chase.