Jessica Zwaan, Author of Built for People & COO at Talentful, joined us on The Modern People Leader.
We talked about AI adoption in HR, from policy design to hands-on building. We explored the “Wild West” of AI use, tool selection, overcoming the stigma of ‘cheating,’ and practical frameworks like the 4Bs (Bot, Build, Borrow, Buy) to guide adoption and innovation.
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(07:07) Kicking off the AI Wild West discussion in HR
(09:10) “AI abstinence” vs. open use – two ends of the spectrum
(12:00) No new ideas – why blocking AI is like banning books
(17:05) Stigma around AI use and feelings of ‘cheating’
(20:18) AI as an Iron Man suit, not Ultron – decision-making analogy
(22:29) Org-wide vs. departmental AI policies
(24:20) Jessica’s HR AI stack: Sana, ODA, BrightHire, ChatGPT
(26:11) Why GPT was chosen over other LLMs
(29:37) Functional flexibility in AI tool adoption
(31:58) Privacy, disclosure, and “don’t be dumb” rules
(33:15) The 4Bs framework – Bot, Build, Borrow, Buy
(36:51) Different levels of “build” – from zaps to full applications
(41:59) Why not to fear losing custom AI knowledge when employees leave
(46:43) Borrowing vs. buying – making smart investment decisions
(48:41) Avoiding “hire first” thinking – the Mythical Man Month
(53:28) How to start: planning, tool exploration, and playful learning
(56:05) Voice note + walk workflow for AI productivity
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Past guests on MPL include Brené Brown, Annie Dean (VP of Team Anywhere, Atlassian), Josh Bersin, Katie Burke (Chief People Officer, Harvey), Liz Fosslien, Helen Russell (Chief People Officer, HubSpot), Dave Scott (Chief People Officer, ADT), Melanie Rossenwasser (Chief People Officer, Dropbox), Crystal Boysen (Chief People Officer, Sprout Social), and many more.
