I’ve often wondered if self-discipline is just a way of turning bad addictions into healthy ones. After all, addictions of all kinds are really just an attempt to numb and distract ourselves from facing uncomfortable feelings. Can’t the same be said for healthy behaviors once they reach a level of compulsion?

I brought Rich Roll on the pod to discuss this idea because, well, he’s a recovered alcoholic who turned into an ultra-endurance athlete in his 40s. Rich is no stranger to reinventing himself, repeatedly leveraging his flaws into virtues.

We talk about the value of pain as a catalyst for change, the idea that addiction is a spectrum that doesn’t just involve substances, terrible breakups, finding a deeper spirituality, lessons from Rich’s financial struggles, his career running a top podcast, and much, much more.

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