21min chapter

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The Intersection of Giftedness and Learning Disabilities with Emily Kircher-Morris

SuccessFULL With ADHD

CHAPTER

Navigating Twice Exceptionality in Education

The chapter explores the challenges of being both gifted and having learning disabilities, focusing on the concept of twice exceptionality. It highlights the historical lack of understanding in educational systems towards these unique students and emphasizes the need for proper identification and support. The speaker discusses personal experiences, advocating for equal opportunities and accommodations for twice exceptional individuals.

00:00
Speaker 2
So I just wanted to talk about, again, the twice exceptional or 2E as people see, which refers to intellectually gifted children. And generally, these people have one or more learning disabilities, such as dyslexia, ADHD, ASD. And it's hard to tell if someone is twice exceptional as a child because they are often labeled as gifted and do well academically in school. So Emily, when did you learn you were twice
Speaker 1
exceptional? Well, first of all, the term twice exceptional really hasn't been around all that long. So you mentioned that I have two master's degrees. So my first master's is an education with certification and gifted education. I got that master's degree in the early 2000s. And at that time, while we were talking about giftedness and that there might be some gifted students who also have a diagnosis of say ADHD, we weren't even using the term twice exceptional. So it was kind of a new concept. But for what it's worth, I was identified and placed in a gifted ed program when I was in second grade. And I was diagnosed as ADHD when I was in fifth grade. So I've known about those two kind of competing pieces of my psychology since then, but didn't necessarily have the language to describe it really until the last, you know, 15 or so years.
Speaker 2
So what happened where you so you were putting to gifted classes in second grade and then later diagnosed with ADHD, what happened in between those years that got you to the ADHD diagnosis? Well,
Speaker 1
my mom was a special educator. So she was really an advocate for me. And she was the one who insisted that I was tested for the gifted program actually, because I was not one of the students who would have been referred by my teachers. I was very disorganized, very impulsive. And one of my teachers was quoted as saying at one of my peer and teacher conferences, you know, Emily's work is generally correct. We just have to dump out her desk to find it. And you know, and so I was it was really difficult for me. So as with many types of neurodivergence, as I got older, the struggles became more prevalent. They came to the surface more because the expectations for my executive functioning were increased. So by the time I got to fifth grade, I had my classroom teacher who was advocating and saying that I should not be allowed to go to the gifted education program because it was a privilege and I wasn't doing well in the classroom. My grades were really pretty poor, had a lot of missing work, but I would take the tests and do fine on the tests. And so, you know, it was again my mom who really advocated. So this was in 1991 at a time when really ADHD was still a pretty new diagnosis that was it was back when we still had 80d versus ADHD, you know, and they were kind of separate things. But she took me and got me diagnosed even though I was a girl again, which was pretty rare. I do always also like to just mention that I was assessed and diagnosed in 1991 and Asperger's at the time wasn't even added to the DSM until 1994. And I know that if I were a kid today, we would have looked at that piece as well, because I recognize a lot of those traits in myself and especially when I was a kid when I look back at that. But yeah, it was it was an interesting process and having the diagnosis, I mean, I don't know how much it helped necessarily. I mean, it did in some ways, but there weren't a whole lot of supports for that and my teachers really didn't know what to do with somebody who could do the work, but just wasn't. Yeah,
Speaker 2
so do you have an ASD diagnosis as well?
Speaker 1
I don't. I don't. I question it often and I have some mixed feelings about self-diagnosis. I think as a clinician, I kind of have one foot in the medical community, which I know, you know, I try to be as non pathologizing as possible. And one foot in the neurodiversity community, which really advocates for self-diagnosis, but it's kind of hard because I know so much about it. I don't I don't know. And so I suspect that that, like I said, I know I have a lot of those traits. They may be sub diagnostic. I don't know if it would meet diagnostic threshold if I were assessed,
Speaker 2
but I question it daily. I definitely want to go into what you just said a little bit more, if you don't mind. But first, I want to go back to when you were saying that you had a mom who advocated for you, she was in special education, which is amazing. We all need advocates, mentors, and you were performing well in your tests. You just couldn't find your papers. And I can't tell you even today how often that happens with gifted students and them either not getting the advancement that they need or not getting the support in those advanced classes.
Speaker 1
Mm hmm. So
Speaker 2
what have you noticed in your work since you are working as a clinician and you're part of the neurodivergent community yourself with students in the classroom today who are labeled as twice exceptional?
Speaker 1
So here's a shift that happened in gifted education programs. Because gifted education programs historically have been not very diverse as far as cultural and linguistic diversity. There has been a push within the last decade, maybe even a little bit longer, to really make sure that we are catching students who come from different backgrounds, right, that are not part of the majority culture. Because typically when we would rely on teacher referrals, the students who were identified were the students who were compliant, who followed middle class norms, and were highly verbal. And so in this process, we've moved to what's called universal screening, where best practice really is for schools to at certain grade levels, usually at least one or two in the elementary level, where they test every student and try to screen every student for placement in the gifted education process. So with that happening, what also ended up happening is we ended up finding a lot of these twice exceptional kids who weren't previously being diagnosed. And so right now, education in general is having a really interesting time trying to figure out how to support these kids. And I work with schools across the country, and it's very different in every single building or district that you go to. And I will say, you know, I've had teachers, especially teachers who've been in the profession for a longer time. And you know, they might be in the gifted education program or they're teaching, and they will look at me and they will say, I don't understand the kids that we're getting today are just different. They're not, you know, it's like, and I'm having a really hard time with their behaviors or executive functioning. I'm like, you're right, they are different. They weren't being identified previously, but that doesn't mean that they don't need and deserve
Speaker 2
services. Correct.
Speaker 1
And so that's kind of where it is now, but there's still a long way to go. Just as far as understanding, I find that people who work in gifted education tend to have a greater knowledge of it. But even general education or especially special education teachers often are unfamiliar, sometimes even with the entire concept, let alone how to support those students. Yeah,
Speaker 2
you're absolutely right. I'm seeing it in my own stepson who is definitely twice exceptional. He's gifted. He has ADHD. And he is being not supported granted. He's in a private school, so they don't have to. There's the distinction, but I'm curious on what's going to happen to him if he goes to a public school because he is in honors programs, but he's not getting accommodations. He's not getting special education services. And I used to be a co-teacher and I worked with a general education teacher in sixth grade. And we worked hand in hand with people in our class who were gifted and who were not gifted and people who were twice exceptional. And I don't understand. And I hopefully, because I've been out of public education for six years at this point, but hopefully what you're seeing is that there are more special education teachers who are pushing into those accelerated classes and to those gifted classes for the twice exceptional. And so they could have that opportunity to be met with their potential. What
Speaker 1
I find as far as services that are available is that a lot of twice exceptional students really have difficulty qualifying for services under IDEA. And partially that's because their academics aren't necessarily suffering. It's much easier for them to access accommodations through a section 504 plan. But I have yet to find a school that has a special education teacher who pushes into the advanced level courses. The student might have resources. Like even if they do have an IEP, they might be able to access special education like a resource teacher or something like that. And I understand from a logistical standpoint, when you're doing a co-taught class, you typically have a small cluster or group of students who have similar needs. And I can understand that a lot of schools probably have a hard time justifying putting a co-taught teacher in a class for a single student. Because you're not probably going to have a whole lot of students who have IEPs in those co-taught classes. Nonetheless, what I find is is a bigger barrier more than anything is that usually what those kids need are accommodations, extended time, audiobooks, you know, those types of things. And teachers in those honors and advanced placement courses frequently, their suggestion to those students is to take a lower level class. But that's not an accommodation. That's a denial of access.
Speaker 2
Correct. And that's putting them down in the more restrictive environment, which makes no sense because they're not given the opportunity that
Speaker 1
other children
Speaker 2
without services are given, like you said, the denial of access.
Speaker 1
Well, and I think also it's important to realize with two-e kids that just because a student can take an honors or an AP course doesn't mean that they have to or that they should. I think it really, but for example, though, like I know a lot of twice exceptional kids who are gifted autistic, and a couple of them have this passion for history, right? They also have pretty slow processing speed. And so they want to take those advanced placement classes, but they do need some accommodations. But cognitively, they know that material, they're passionate about that material. We should, they should absolutely be given the opportunity to take those courses. But it really is a shift in mindset that is required for the educators to kind of wrap their heads around like, how is this course that supposed to be very rigorous? How do I accommodate without making it less rigorous? Because I think there's value to that. And I think that that's just a situation that they haven't been faced with as much to really develop those skills. Yeah.
Speaker 2
And what I've noticed too is the longer you wait as someone going into an accelerated or honors class, the harder it is to bridge the gap. So if you have that ability to go in, right, like start when you can. And if it's too rigorous, even with accommodations or like sensory overload or behaviorally, you just are breaking down even with every accommodation that you're receiving, then you could always go back. It's a lot easier to go back than move forward.
Speaker 1
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, I had a client one time who she was in a co-taught math class. And the reason they did that more than anything so was so she could get her IEP minutes in. And so they put her in that co-taught class because she didn't want to give up any electives. And that was during middle school. But then when she got to high school, she wanted to take an advanced level science course, but she had it because she had been in that co-taught class. She hadn't had the higher level math. And so then even though they allowed her to take that science class, it was very difficult for her because her math was a year behind those other students in that class. But they weren't forward thinking when they put her in that class. And I mean, the parents were a part of that too. I think they just didn't really consider what that full impact would have been for her as she got older. Yeah,
Speaker 2
but a co-taught class is supposed to be at the same level as the general
Speaker 1
education. Let me rephrase. The advanced math though would have been a grade above, right? So like in school level, like you can take algebra as an eighth grader or whatever, whereas most students. So she was in the typical, she was in what would have been appropriate for her grade level, but she wasn't in the advanced level course. And then she wanted to take the advanced level science.
Speaker 2
I say, I say. So besides the academic piece of either not being given access, not receiving appropriate accommodations because technically they're not seeing an impact in education, even though if you look a little bit deeper, there probably is an impact in education, because they aren't performing to their potential, right? What else do you notice about twice exceptional students in schools? Yeah.
Speaker 1
One of the big pieces is that it's very frustrating for those students to have this discrepancy between their ability and what their performance is. So whatever setting they're in, they know that they get the content, but then when their work doesn't measure up, it kind of can definitely lead to this imposter syndrome, right? Where I know I can do this stuff sometimes. Why can't I do it all the time? Why is it so inconsistent? It also frequently gets explained away. So there is a lot of stigma surrounding neurodivergent diagnosis, like ADHD and autism, and giftedness is not so much. It's like, oh, no, they're gifted. That's wonderful. Like, society values that in a different way. And so frequently, because some of those signs can mimic each other for those twice exceptional kids, often one will get missed. So if they're identified as gifted, it's often much harder to get that diagnosis of that second exceptionality, or if they are identified with that diagnosis, again, it's then sometimes they don't get referred or placed in those other classes. For example, you can also have twice exceptional individuals who are right and dyslexic. And that is really hard because what you'll find is that these kids have extensive vocabularies and lots of background knowledge. And when you speak to them, they have all of these words. And then when they go to read and write, it's much more basic because there are so many barriers to them being able to sound out the words or whatever might be happening there. And so it's just really hard for them to figure out always where they fit and who they are as a student.
Speaker 2
Sure. Having that reading, learning, disability, and having that discrepancy, maybe reading on a lower grade level fluently and comprehension wise, if you're reading the text, can be extremely challenging, especially when you have your standardized test and you're not given those accommodations, you don't have audio books while you're following along. And yeah, I could imagine that it's frustrating for the child, it's frustrating for the teacher, it's frustrating for the parent to put a comprehensive plan and put all the pieces together. So because every child is unique, just because you have a two-e label, doesn't mean that it's a one-size-fits-all solution. Well, it's kind of like saying somebody's neurodivergent, right? Like it's such a broad label, it can mean a million different things. And even
Speaker 1
if you boil it down and say, oh, well, this is a gifted ADHD-er, well, again, one that can look very different from one student to the next.
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, wow. So tell me about what happens or what you've noticed in people who have not been identified as twice exceptional as an adult, but they
Speaker 1
are. I should add that piece. So you will sometimes see memes going around, people will share things about being a burnt out gifted kid, right? Like someone who's identified as gifted when they were young and now they're an adult and they're basically a failure. And not, I mean, it's a meme, it's, you know, exactly. Sure. But my personal theory about that is that those are probably all twice exceptional people who never were identified when they were young and never had any supports, but were able to get by, they kind of flew under the radar and did well enough, they did well enough on the test, or they got through, or they used anxiety as a coping skill to like overcompensate for areas that were difficult for them. And then they get to adulthood and it's hard and it kind of falls apart. And for what it's worth, even students who don't have a lot of supports in school explicit supports, school is a very structured setting. There are a lot of built-in supports there that you maybe don't have in adulthood. And so then again, that imposter syndrome that, you know, feeling ineffective, you know, you have burnout that is, can be a factor. And so there can be a lot of those pieces that really impact adulthood.
Speaker 2
I see out there a lot that people with memes and non-social media now are identifying as having an autism
Speaker 1
burnout.
Speaker 2
So I know that not everyone with, you know, who identifies as having autism is also gifted. Hang
Speaker 1
on, let me, I'll interrupt you for one second on that. Research does show that of individuals who are identified as autistic, they're one and a half times more likely than the general public to also have intelligence in the superior range. And so, so there is a higher proportion of autistic people who are gifted compared to the general population. Anyway, continue. I just find that fascinating. No, I appreciate you sharing that.
Speaker 2
So that's, that's really good information to know, especially since you brought that up. And I'm not going to get too far into it, but you know, love is on the spectrum. You know, they're showing people who are autistic and are of lower intelligence. So, it's nice that you can bring to the community and to the listeners here that there's one and a half times the chance that if you are autistic, you're also of higher intelligence. Yeah.
Speaker 1
Yeah, I, I haven't watched the new season. I watched the last season. I had mixed feelings about it. I think in general, it's a benefit to the neurodiversity community to have people interested in, in learning about this and working to kind of normalize some of those experiences. It's not a perfect paradigm. But when we're talking about autism specifically, and this term is really not used very much anymore, but some people still refer to high functioning autism. What we would say now is low support needs or level one. But what you have to realize is like, basically what that means, high functioning autism quote unquote is not the same as twice exceptional gifted autistic. What that means specifically is that somebody who is verbal, who probably would have qualified for a diagnosis of Asperger's back when that was the case. They didn't necessarily have a language delay, but, but intelligence wise on an IQ test, you're maybe looking at like maybe like some in the average range or about so like 90 or above. So there's a big range there of what that might be considered. The other thing too is for what it's worth is you might have somebody who is gifted autistic who has very, very hard time with social connections in that type of communication. So what you see on the surface isn't necessarily always what you might get in other situations.

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