E3: Infrastructure, copywriting, data, ops: Building GTM systems that actually work | Wesley Hoang
GTM Engineer School Podcast
Intro
This chapter explores the emerging concept of go-to engineering, focusing on the integration of marketing and engineering practices. It discusses the impact of automation and AI in enhancing outreach strategies within a competitive communication environment.
About our guest — Wesley Hoang
Wesley Hoang is co-founder of Cymate, a B2B lead gen agency that leverages tailored automations and AI to scale pipeline. He's also founder of Akaiza, an ops hub for go-to-market teams to streamline outbound campaign operations from deliverability to analytics.
Before building GTM engineering workflows full-time, Wesley held engineering roles at Twitter, Apple, and Experian. His technical background gives him a unique systems perspective on building scalable go-to-market operations that blend technical precision with marketing psychology.
Wesley's philosophy centers on starting with fundamentals — getting basic workflows right before adding complexity. His agency has transformed from manual processes to sophisticated AI-powered systems while maintaining focus on what actually drives results.
Core takeaways
Wesley’s four-pillar GTM tech stack framework that every operation needs: infrastructure, copywriting, data, and operations
Why "basic" beats "fancy" — Wesley's favorite workflow is the most straightforward one that actually works
The market sophistication trade-off — how to decide between high-volume outreach vs. precision targeting based on your market maturity
Psychology over tools — why copywriting and buyer psychology are the most underrated parts of GTM engineering
The "just do it" learning method — how to overcome analysis paralysis and start building workflows immediately
Communication as a core GTM engineering skill — why working with founders and product teams is essential for success
Top quotes
Definition of GTM Engineering: "Go to market engineering... I think that is definitely like a new term that has been popping up this past few years. If I were to redefine it, I would sort of like separate that into two sections. So go to market and then engineering."
On the Evolution: "It did get easier, but it also did get harder... marketing nowadays is not just like creative anymore. It's almost like half technical, half creative."
The Four Pillars of GTM: "If I was to sort of like break it down and make it super, super simple, there are going to be four key areas that you need to focus on. The infrastructure, the copywriting, the data and operations."
On Starting Simple: "My favorite bill when it comes to go to market is the most basic bill... Don't look into anything more complicated. Don't worry about like intent data triggers or whatever it might be."
The Action Imperative: "Just do it. Just start doing s**t... A lot of people, they do have passion for GTM, including myself. The one thing that's holding them back is just taking action in general."
On Learning: "I genuinely believe if you just put your head down and literally just put like three days of your calendar to learn like one of the top tools... you know what, you know how it works right away."
Referenced tools and resources
* ZapMail: Wesley's preferred email infrastructure provider with 0 deliverability issues
* Octave: His top GTM tool for personalized messaging ("Octave done. Full stop")
* Clay: The orchestration platform that serves as enrichment hub
* Instantly/Smartlead: Email sequencing platforms ("doesn't matter, just choose one")
* HeyReach: For LinkedIn automation alongside email sequences
* Claude vs ChatGPT: Claude for complex tasks, ChatGPT for data use
* Apollo: Solid data source despite criticism ("billion dollar company for a reason")
Timestamps
* (00:01) Introduction to Wesley Huang and SciMate agency background
* (01:10) GTM engineering as separate go-to-market plus engineering components
* (02:57) The evolution question: How things got easier and harder simultaneously
* (04:53) Lightning Round: Tool preferences and rapid-fire recommendations
* (05:24) Claude vs ChatGPT: Why prompting matters more than the model choice
* (05:37) Clay as enrichment orchestrator, not database: "Clay is a third party tool"
* (08:09) The four-pillar GTM tech stack framework deep dive
* (12:32) Trade-offs in system design: Market sophistication determines strategy
* (15:30) The three essential tools: ZapMail, Octave, Clay, plus distribution layer
* (18:19) Wesley's favorite workflow: Why basic beats sophisticated every time
* (21:06) When clients need agency help: Infrastructure, data, or copywriting gaps
* (25:11) Essential GTM engineering skills: Communication as underrated necessity
* (27:01) Practical learning advice: "Just do it" and commit three days to one tool
* (31:06) Avoiding LinkedIn rabbit holes: Focus on fundamentals over flashy workflows
* (33:37) Where to connect with Wesley and Akiza's beta program timeline
How to connect with Wesley
* Cymate
* Akaiza
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