Leo Babauta is the prolific writer of Zen Habits who is joining me from the distant island of Guam 7,400 miles away. Here are a few tasters for what to expect in this wide-ranging conversation:

😨 How Zen Habits evolved into his mission to help others push into their uncertainty.

👨‍🎓 How Leo unschooled and de-programmed his kids to facilitate their own natural state of curiosity.

🚀 Leo's compelling case for why a fully-optimised life would actually suck and risks being the most controlled boring thing possible.

💪 Developing and training 'radical curiosity' to dive inwards even when you don't like what you're seeing—how to hold the pose when you're entire body wants to shut down and run.

🤼 What he's learned about learning and his no-holds-barred debate with Tim Ferriss on the idea of abandoning goals.

🧘‍♂️ The incredible Zen Habits origin story – his path from being in debt, overweight, a smoker and feeling miserable to escaping debt, gaining a following of over a million readers, publishing books on habit-change, finding joy and even running an ultra-marathon!

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📝 Read the Full Transcript here over on Medium

❓Listener Question >> “How do you feel about the balance between achievement and appreciation?” Tag @jonnym1ller on Twitter or Instagram.

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🙏 Join Leo's new Fearless Academy and support his mission.

👨‍🎓 Learn more about his Sea Change Habit Academy

🖋️ Join over 2 million readers of Leo's Zen Habits

🐦 Find Leo on Twitter @Zen_Habits

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🎵Musical Credits
Thanks so much to the Heinali who generously provided the musical accompaniments.