How to Get the Best Return on Ad Spend, Right?

The best return on ad spend is the incentive, right? Usually that goes along with a low CPM. We have very close relationships with like publishers and we've cut out a number of middlemen. High frequency tends to be a negative signal for us. What we see is when that frequency is hitting an average of three, four, five is when people start to take action. After that fourth listen, after that fifth listen, whether it's on one specific podcast or a couple of podcasts, whatever, is when they're actually then going to the website. And so I would say the other thing too is that like scaling media becomes really important for brands.