It's like we hate to plan. We try and get away from plan. We try to get from the big up front design. As it says. It's also a little bit like, i'll just get this temporary thing that my neighbor gave me, this night stand, and then it's like, five years in, this is your night stand. It's not temporary. And in soft orys pretty much the same, just quickly going to patch up whateveris needed. And then it's like, five years later, oh, maybe we can remove that. Finally it happens. It does kind of feel that if you have time when you're not rushed to movein, than you can plan and then it will look nice. But if you don't, you just go whatever off the shelf is. And then probably the same as an ikia apartment feels, probably an icia code would feel like this. How would you describe like the equivalent feeling of code into an agia apartment? I feel like what we do as we build ic apartments or akia houses, really containen there are some really nice things. Kea, like we build, like, some sheep ikea stuff, right? In think containers are a good exampleen aleast i's a good example of that, right? Like, we it's orng to haven't a key a home. It'slike woing to ave a cubernet system. And it's like, what does that meannd, i think, at least on't the places i've been. It means you jo start, like, pulling pieces off the shelf as you realize that you need them. And you haven'tike, thought everything through. But there's like, so many different pieces that you could put together, that you want to play trying to get the best localized decision. But you they don't all fit together the best. Maybe the best container orchestrator container run time doesn't fit well with the best, like, service mash or whatever. So you wind up wiuth like all o these pieces that leg sort of fit together, but don't really fit together. And then eventually, you know, we all decide that like, well, this line of ikey isn't cool any more, so en s it out and bring out a hole in the line. That's like we just re cycle all the furniture in our apartment, but like, we didn't really solve the underlying problem, right? I feel like that, that's a thing of balance. I think that's something we should definitely explore here, just like we do have this cycle in soffer engineering, where we go from like, oh, we're jut going to put a bunch of stuff together, get stuff off the shelf, because we need to go fast, right? Whether your start up or s you project, you don o alot of time line, or don't hav alot time on resources, we just pull a bunch of stuff off, patch it all together. Ere lik good. We're moving, and then it works. And then over a time, it kind of, it just becomes brittle and it crumbles, and everybody hates maintaining it. It's like itea furniture you've taken apart and put together again, likea a hundred times, and it's like, this stuff doesn't fit any more. And we're like, o ky. We'll throw it all away. And then we're going to try again. We're going to try fresh and new. But fast again, yes, but it's fast again, right? It's like fresh an new, but at the same pace we were moving before, and it feelsat the same velocity. We don't want to lose anye velocity. You need to keep moving. You nee to get building. We're to bild a whole new platform, a whole new set of micro services, or whatever. And i feel like we blame the furniture for being bad, right? It's like we blame cubenetes for being bad. We blame restapiis or jason, or container or whatever. And it's like we bringin new hotness, and it's like, a micro services will fix this, or g r pc will fix this, or whatever. It's like, yet that lamp wasn't, like, it didn't fit with the decors because it's like a bad lamp. It's because s like you didn't buy a lamp that fit with the rest of the stuff. Like, you got to buy things that fit together. Oo, manmi, my statements are not ending in question, but they're so wholesome and so true that you just find yourself noddinglike, absolutelyi feel lhake, this is like chris just, like talks to the world, but like eand a nataly, bringing up really good points. Well, if anybody is listening to this and is going to build an ige equivalent of softar i, we're happy to inspire you. Yes, please make it reverse compatible. I have an old, very old kitchen in my this apartment, and it doesn't fit the new door. So it'sa makeit reverse compatible more. I do feel though that, you know, speaking of this kind of, like, i think what we're getting here is some sort of, like we need a better balance of how we build softer right fits. Like we're stuck in this loop. It feels like it su we got really inspired by iteration, and so we iterate a lot. But it kind of feels like we're iterating on the wrong things, like we're we're iterating on the concepts of how we build softer but not the fundamental problems of the softer self. And i feel like one of the things that we tend to iterate toward, or kind of default to, at least we did so heavily in pre pandemic times. Maybe it's shifting a little bit now, but it feels like every time there's a problem, we kind of strike up a meeting. We're like, yes, let's have a meeting. Let's put a reecurring meeting on the schedule. And like that, we'll solve the problems that we're having. We'll get together and we'll have meetings. So my first question is, do either of you find meetings to be productive? I

would say maybe one in ten, one in ten.

Can you predict een if a meeting is going to be productive or not?

Oh, definitely.