I'm very skeptical that in a lot of cases by the time you reach into that journey that the product organization is actually iterating faster and more effectively than it did before. In gross terms, there's an opportunity cost to doing productivity work. When is that going to pay off? Do you have a model for understanding that? I sort of went into my own perspective that not only do these types of investments not always pay off, but a lot of these investments into things like microservices are often new things, almost new fads in the industry. Companies pursue them haphazardly. That contributes to the problem of them not really paying off in terms of business impact and value.

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