Jason: I think in general, you're going to end up doing a multi-prong strategy when you're inside an organization that's large. One of the most important external hires in GitHub's history is we share him too, Mac, showing X-heroku, Macs. He was at Google, he had a startup and he was my number one person to go recruit for a variety of reasons. Jason: What do you recommend to our listeners who are kind of in that middle, like stuck in the mud in the middle?Craig: It's simple, but it's hard. It's fear, right? It's make that decision and ship something. And if you've

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