The Value of Asking for Help in Leadership

About our guest:

Parveen Khan is a Quality Practice Lead at CFC, passionate about ensuring that delivering high-quality products is a shared responsibility. She enjoys working with teams to improve processes, tools, and methodologies that help create better products. Parveen is also an international speaker, sharing her testing experiences to inspire others worldwide. Outside of work, she loves spending time with her two children.

Find our guest on:

• LinkedIn

Find us on:

• All of our social channels are on bento.me/geekingout
• All of Adriana's social channels are on bento.me/adrianamvillela

Show notes:

• On-Call Me Maybe Podcast
• Ana Margarita Medina on Geeking Out
• Parveen Khan on On-Call Me Maybe
• Observability Mythbusters: Observability is NOT Only for SREs (Adriana's article on Medium, inspired by a conversation with Parveen)
• Selenium
• Thoughtworks
• CAC Group (insurance company)
• Parveen's Blog

Transcript:
ADRIANA:
Hey, fellow geeks. Welcome to Geeking Out, the podcast about all geeky aspects of software delivery DevOps, Observability, reliability, and everything in between. I'm your host, Adriana Villela, coming to you from Toronto, Canada. And geeking out with me today. I have Parveen Khan. Welcome, Parveen.

PARVEEN:
Thank you. Thank you for having me.

ADRIANA:
I am so happy to have you on. And for for those of you who have been following this podcast, you may remember that our precursor podcast was, On-Call Me Maybe with my former coworker, Ana Margarita Medina, and Parveen was actually one of our early guests on On-Call Me Maybe. And I'm so happy to have her join me for Geeking Out this time around. And, Parveen, where are you calling from today?

PARVEEN:
Yeah. So. Yeah. Thanks. Again. Thanks again. Like, I remember, like, we I, Yeah, I joined you last time when you, when this podcast was the. And then again, we are meeting like again. So it's it's awesome. Yeah. I'm dialing from London. And. Yeah, I'm looking forward for a chat today. Geeking Out.

ADRIANA:
Yay. All right. Yes, yes, we will geek out on all things. And I should also mention too, like, when we first connected, through On-Call Me Maybe, it was when I was doing a piece on, how, Observability is not just for, for SREs, and it was actually inspired by a conversation that you and I had, when you reached out to me on LinkedIn. And then I was so like, I was so blown away, but, by our conversation, I'm like, I have to write this down as a blog post. And then it it turned into this, like, whole thing, and it was just amazing and so many awesome things came, came out of that conversation. So I'm very grateful that we had a chance to meet.

PARVEEN:
Yeah, absolutely. It was more of a intersection between quality and Observability and that conversation. Yes, absolutely.

ADRIANA:
That's right, that's right. Well, we'll dig into that shortly. But first let us start with our icebreaker questions. Okay. First question. Are you a lefty or a righty?

PARVEEN:
I'm a righty.

ADRIANA:
Okay. Next question. Do you prefer iPhone or Android?

PARVEEN:
Android.

ADRIANA:
Do you prefer Mac, Linux, or Windows?

PARVEEN:
I was a very Mac person, but now I'm okay. Like Windows. Fine. Like I'm very Mac person. Yes.

PARVEEN:
I prefer Mac.

ADRIANA:
Which one do you, end up using for work? Out of curiosity? PK: Windows. Is by choice or by, by by required by job.

PARVEEN:
Required by job. Yes.

ADRIANA:
Fair enough, fair enough.

PARVEEN:
If it was by choice, I would say, Mac. Please.

ADRIANA:
I'm with you. I'm with you. Okay. Next question. Do you have a favorite programing language?

PARVEEN:
Yeah, I love, I love, I used to love working with Java. That's my first favorite and forever favorite language. Which I learned. And, I used to work and I used to enjoy writing, programs on it, and, like, I think Selenium when I, back in those days when I used to use Selenium, I think Java was my preferred language. And then I think a lot of other tools came in where you kind of like use different languages, like JavaScript, TypeScript. But I think Java, Java is my favorite programing language.

ADRIANA:
Awesome. Okay. Next question. Do you prefer dev or ops?

PARVEEN:
I prefer DevOps. Like both together.

ADRIANA:
Ooh. Love it, love it. Okay. Next one. Do you prefer JSON or YAML?

PARVEEN:
Tough one. Okay, I think I prefer JSON. Yeah, I prefer JSON. Yeah.

ADRIANA:
Cool. Okay. Do you prefer spaces or tabs? Not making it easy, am I?

PARVEEN:
Tab. Yes. Tab. Maybe. Is tab.

ADRIANA:
All right. All right, two more questions left. Do you prefer to consume content through video or text?

PARVEEN:
Through text? I love reading.

ADRIANA:
AV: I’m with you. Like, yeah. Yeah.

PARVEEN:
Like hear video.s Then you have to be prepared, like carry your headphones and all that stuff. So, like text is like, you can open up everywhere, anywhere. Read. I love reading.

ADRIANA:
I agree, and distraction free. I get very distracted when I watch video.

PARVEEN:
Yeah, I'm not a good listener, I guess. Like, that's how I feel. Like I can't listen. I can't yeah, I can't listen to longer time, but I can read for as long as I can.

ADRIANA:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah I'm with you, I'm with you I found the only way that I can, do video. Like, especially for learning is either, like, walking around the house listening to the video, so, like a podcast. Or if I'm, like, distracted. So I have, like, a treadmill in my home office and a bike in my home office. I'm like, if I'm doing one of those things, then it keeps my brain distracted enough that I can, like, concentrate on the video. More than if I was just sitting there.

PARVEEN:
Yeah, yeah. Is it? I can't really I feel like I'm just I'm just doing one thing like. Yeah, it's just makes me like I can't concentrate for a longer time. If it's a video. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

ADRIANA:
It's hard. Okay. Final question. What is your superpower?

PARVEEN:
Superpower? Superpower is at. I feel like I'm, I'm a very. I'm very open to learning always. And I ask for help. I don't shy away, like, you know, I don't feel like. Oh. Like what? What if, like, people think they. You know, what if they say no to me? What if, like, you know, people think that I don't know this, so I think, like, this is my superpower. This has helped me a lot in my career, I guess, like, you know, I, I, I just reach out to people. Let me I think I feel like I'm like, I'm lucky enough in that sense. Like, you know, I reach out to people and I ask them, I ask like, you know, I can reach out and say, hey, you know what? I love reading your article. Do you have a few minutes? I want to really chat with you. I just ask away people and I get time to speak to people. I'm. I feel like asking help is my superpower.

ADRIANA:
That is amazing. And it's the perfect segue into our conversation. And, you know, I, I just, I can't underscore enough, like, how important it is to ask for help. You make such an excellent, excellent point. Because we can, you know, it's so easy to I think as you get more senior in your career and people look up to you as having being the one with all the answers. And yeah, I think we need to get out of this mindset of not being the ones with all the answers. It's okay to not be the one with all the answers, and to stop being shy, scared, and to say, I don't know that. Like I'll even do stuff like, I'm sorry, dumb question. Can you explain this to me?

PARVEEN:
Yes, yes, absolutely. And I think somewhere like, you know, if you if you have that any kind of title or something, you feel like, oh people will think that they like, you know, you need to know everything. No, it's not like I feel like it's never, it's more about asking away those questions. Asking away for help and saying that, you know what? I might not know this. Like, you know, maybe let's let's, let's brainstorm. Let's understand what this is. And it's always about, working like it's not all about you knowing everything and you telling people, right? It's all about, how can you get different perspectives and how can you get, different solutions to it? Because if you were the only one know it knows everything. There is kind of like always everything is going to work in the same way of how you think about it. And then you will never have other perspectives and you will never have, you will never get to get more creative solutions to the problems that you're working on within the team.

ADRIANA:
Yeah, yeah, I, I totally agree. And that's why, you know, it, it, it reminds me of like when how you and I met. Right? Yeah. You reached out to me on LinkedIn. I think you read one of my articles on Observability. And you're like, hey, I just want to have a chat.

PARVEEN:
Yeah, exactly.

ADRIANA:
It was such a great chat. Like, as I said earlier in, in the recording, like, you inspired me so much through our conversation because you opened my eyes to new possibilities that I hadn't considered before. And I think that's that's what tech is all about, is like being open minded, because we can't evolve without the open mindedness, especially in technology.

PARVEEN:
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. That's that. Yeah. See, that's the amazing thing, right? Like, I get to meet like, you know, one just one little like, you know, drop off message or like, you know, asking of it. And I... you get a lot of people, you build your network and I think right now again, these are the cool topic, right. Like networking is so, so, so, so important right now. And that doesn't mean that you have to meet or like it's not about meeting in person only. It's more about how do you build those connections, how do you build that support system. And it's not about like helping in the sense, like it's about how can you learn from each other? How can you support each other? How can you uplift each other? I think it's it's so important. So I think until unless you speak until unless you reach out until unless you take that first step, it's never possible. Like, you know, you never know whom to get connected. Like if you wait for an opportunity or if you wait for attending a conference, only then it becomes like very limited scope for you to build that network, right?

ADRIANA:
Yeah. That's right. It's not you. People can't shouldn't you shouldn't wait as you said. Just you shouldn't wait for people to come to you. You have to you have to go to them. And I want to point out also like something that you did when you reached out to me on LinkedIn, which I thought was like, you know, I think this is the way that should be done because you know, I'm sure, like me, you probably get tons of connection requests, on a regular basis. And a lot of the times I'm like, I, you know, like, I don't know who you are. Like, yeah. And like, I have zero context. And I remember when you reached out to me, you had like a very specific purpose. So like your connection request, you know, you explain why it is that you wanted it to connect. And I like I find those connection requests a lot more meaningful. And it reminds me also of like, I, I, I, I mentored, someone a number of years ago, and I became his mentor. I don't know how he found me on LinkedIn, but he reached out to me on LinkedIn, and he's like, hey, I would love it if, like, I could be, if you could be my mentor. And I thought it was like, you know, first of all, like that he just reached out to me out of the blue. But it was like, send a thoughtful message on LinkedIn. And like, it seemed genuine. Just like when you reached out, it seemed genuine. So like, I will respond to those types of messages.

PARVEEN:
Yeah.

ADRIANA:
Like these genuine requests, conversations where you're like, yeah, we can we can form a relationship and, you know, like some lovely things come out of me mentoring him. Some lovely things have come out of us connecting. Yeah. And I think that's so important is, is how you approach people when, when you're going to connect with them. Because nobody, nobody wants to just, like, “Hey, connect with me!”

PARVEEN:
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And you know, I, I learned this from, one of the course that was given by I don't remember the name, but at ThoughtWorks when I was working about the social media, like especially about the LinkedIn. And I think since then, like, I think I've started using like I realized that. Oh, yeah. Like when you send a connection request, it's more about why do you want like it's not about telling, why do you want to connect with something like you might have got like, like something relatable or. Yeah, like you want to build a network because you share the same, topic or there might be some connection. Right. So you might have, like, I feel like taking the extra effort of writing that note feels like, you really want to connect. It's not just a click button saying that send request and send it with like, you know, it's not about that. It's more about like, you know, this person or you have read this person's article or like, you know, you you've enjoyed doing something like, you know, you just mentioned that. And, since then, I think this is a practice that I've tried maintaining myself whenever I, whenever I send a connection request to anyone like, if I want to get connected, there is a specific, reason why I want to be connected, because they might be sharing some content which I want to be learning from them. So saying, like, I want to see the post that I follow based on that, I this and and I write that note specifically and I... same thing. Like, when I get a connection request with the message there, I'm like, wow, they took some time to write that. Like, you know, whatever that would be like, even if it's like I would like to connect because I want to grow my network. Even that little thing, I feel like, okay, they have taken some effort to write, which means they really want to connect. So let me just say yes. Is how I go.

ADRIANA:
Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah. And then it also made me think of like, I've also gotten some connection requests, which I thought were honestly like kind of annoying and insulting where like, you know, they, they've bothered to write the nice connection message and then you connect with them and then they immediately send you a message like, hey, thanks for connecting. By the way, check out my product. Oh....

PARVEEN:
Yes, oh yes. Oh yeah.

ADRIANA:
Dude. And I'm sorry, but like, I will I will remove that connection right away because I know that's offensive. That's just offensive.

PARVEEN:
Yeah yeah.

ADRIANA:
No no. Like at least try to develop a rapport first.

PARVEEN:
Yes.

ADRIANA:
If you want me to even consider.

PARVEEN:
Yeah I got you.

ADRIANA:
Which there is no guarantee.

PARVEEN:
Absolutely force messages I know like if I, if I don't respond to one message it's like okay I don't want to continue. That's that's the message. But then yeah, I know, I know if you connect. Yeah. Like these people, a lot of people where they kind of sell the services or like sell the product, it's like, I'm fine with that. If you try once and message and say that this is where it is, and if I'm really interested, I want to get back to you. But then you don't. You shouldn't be chasing again and again. That will absolutely lose my interest in what you're trying to sell. More than saying you look at it.

ADRIANA:
Oh, yeah, especially the ones that are, you know, kind of the they're trying to make you feel guilty, like, oh, you know, clearly my message hasn't resonated with you and I'll leave you alone. But just reply to tell me that you're not interested. Like, buddy, I've ignored your last four messages because you're being forceful and annoying. Do you think I’m going to reply to this now? Take notes people. The right way to connect, versus the wrong way. So yeah. But I, you know, when I want to, I want to go back a little bit because, you know, when, when you and I met, I, I think you you mentioned you were working at ThoughtWorks before. Yeah. You were in a QA individual contributor role.

PARVEEN:
That's correct. Yeah. I was more of a consultant. Yes.

ADRIANA:
Okay. Yeah. So, and now you've, now you've switched jobs recently? Recently? Or how recently have you definitely, since we like.

PARVEEN:
A year. Yeah. I think a year. Yeah, it's been like a year and a month, a couple of months. But yeah, I. I've, I've joined as a, quality practice lead. It's, insurance based company, CAC. So we are pretty much insurance heavy, uh, company. So yeah, I'm looking as a quality practice lead. So it's, it's a transition between like working as a consultant, going on two different clients and helping them. And now it's more about like, yeah. As a, as a quality practice lead, working across the department and across the organization to help, help them build quality practices, quality processes. And it's more about how do we think about quality throughout. It's, it's it's it's lot more about how do we, it's more about influencing and get driving, quality through and by different, different approaches, whether it's people tool or processes, you name it, anything based on anything, you know, maybe you're trying to influence or you're trying to like, help them to see. It's kind of like headlights, you know, showing the light, of how to build quality and think about quality. And what do you need to do? Why do we need to do that? On a higher scale is what I can say, yeah.

ADRIANA:
Cool. So it's basically been two big transitions for you, which is, one out of consulting, which I worked as a consultant for for years. I can definitely appreciate like it's it's definitely a mindset shift from always like working for different clients to like now you're just working basically at the same client effectively really. And, and then moving into like a leadership position, which I also like is a big it can be a shock to the system as well, if you're used to being like an individual contributor. So, yeah, I what I guess, let's, let's do this as a two parter. What was, how did it feel going from from consulting the, into, to basically working, in non consulting and then part two, what are, like we can talk about like the transition into a leadership role.

PARVEEN:
Yeah. So before working as a consultant at ThoughtWorks. So before that I used to work for companies. So I've, I've always, like, mostly on the startups as well. So I've always loved seeing, the, like the whole transformation of the product of like how we started building the product and how it has been gone live where people have been using. So I used to always love the journey, seeing that journey and me being part of that. And then I joined ThoughtWorks where I wanted to explore different domains, different, and it's it's not to say like you want to work at different companies, but still you're a part of one company. So that's how I see that as. And then again, I was like, it was it was really. Yeah, it's it was really interesting to explore so many, different domains that I go to work with, like, you know, and it was, those challenges, it kind of helped me build my, toolset, my skill set. So it's like it's more about, like, facing all those challenges and working with so many smart people. Like, you know, ThoughtWorks, they have really amazing consultants like you get to again, like, you know, you get to you. It's not about just get going there and working for clients, but the access that you get to the smartest people whom you can talk, talk to and you can learn from them.

And, you know, so that was even more valuable for me. So I think that experience has taught me a lot, in terms of how as a consultant, you go, in a completely new place where you don't know, like, you know, you it's not even your team, not even your product. But then how do you go there and, you know, and start from day one, how do you start making changes like it's the. Because, when you work at a company, it's a, like a slow paced even the is just one thing. But then when you actually work, it's it's a slow pace. But when you as a consultant, it's like it's not you won't get a two year contract or a four year contract, right? You just get like you need to start, like you need to make make changes, like you need to show your impact from day one. So I think that that has taught me a lot like, it was really valuable things that I've got from. And then, and then I, I just wanted to be come back. Like. I was more like, yeah, I've learned a of it's not to say that I've learned everything, but I've learned enough that I've built my own toolset, I've built my own skillset. And now I want to use those somewhere, in a company where, I want to see the whole journey, the whole transition, and apply all those. So that's where, when I got this, then I came across this opportunity when, when they reached me out, I was like, oh, quite effectively, this is, this is really interesting because, as like, I'm always passionate to, like, help people like, you know, join teams and help them, to, like, advocate about quality. That's my favorite thing. You know? So and they were looking for this and I was like, oh, yeah, why not let me like, you know, and, I really loved it. And now it's more yes, the transition is like, it's more about it's like, you are it's you don't you are not doing it, actually. But how do you get people do what you want to do? It's like... it's it's like. Yeah, in simple terms, I think that's, that's that's what it is.

Like you are not doing it. But then how do you get people to do it? How do you build that trust that people will trust you? What you're saying and, they will they will join you in, in your journey. And how do you and trust and then credibility, right? How do they know that they should trust. They should believe what you're saying is right. Like, you know, and that's where you you're I feel like, you know, that's where your personal brand comes in as well. And that's where what you, what you put out yourself. Out there comes, very handy, I guess, you know. And all of these, I think it becomes more of like, okay, how do you, how do you work with the teams where they trust you and, that you're trying to solve the the challenges and they support you? And then how do you get a buy in from the leadership to say that this is the right challenge that we have to solve? How do you pitch in like you know that this is the priority right now because you can't do everything at the same time. So you need to pick up the. And when you join a company, when you see from a fresh perspective, you'll see many challenges, many problems or or not even a problems, maybe some gaps, or maybe they're doing certain things and you want to. There's more room for improvement as well. And you'll see many things. Right. And then you can't just go like, oh, let's work on all of these. So you have to pick what. So it's more about like how do you start thinking? How do you start thinking about how do you pitch that this is more important? And how do you prove that this will work? This is like this is like it's about goal. You know, KPIs. And probably metrics like, you know, and then two layers that is kind of like you're in the middle layer and then your team working on it, like, you know, trying to and how do you support them. So I think it's. Yeah. So this is the difference.

ADRIANA:
A lot of dimensions to it, basically. Yeah. Yeah. And you touched on, on like so many interesting things. And I think the first one that I want to touch on is you mentioned, you know, like when you're working as a consultant, you're, you're you basically have to hit the ground running. You have to be productive from day one. And it, as you said, so different than when you, when you join like, a company, where, where you're, you have like, that ramp up time and it's I, I, I'll bet... you mentioned that you've worked in startups previously as well. I'll bet that that startup experience, helped you a lot with, the consulting side of things in terms of the hit the ground running thing.

PARVEEN:
Yes. Yes.

ADRIANA:
Which, yeah. I mean, it's it's daunting. It's exciting, especially when you're younger, you. know. Like, that go, go go mentality that you hit a, you hit an age where you're like, okay, I could just like take, take a little bit of time to breathe.

PARVEEN:
Yeah, absolutely. I think that that that's a good point. You make a good point you made because I of course, like when you're working in a startup is like you have to there's so many different hats, you know, doing one thing at a time. And, because speed... always delivery and speed is, the, priority quality goes, takes the backseat always. Yeah. And then that's where I think, you know, the challenge is like, how do you bring that up? How do you how do you keep you resilience, in such a way that you just don't give up, like, you know, you just, keep trying, keep trying. And how do you try? How do you try to solve the same problem? By talking in a different way each time. You know, I think that's that has helped. That helped a lot in consultancy. Like, you know, when you go there, I think it's more I think it's it's another layer on top of it to say that, okay. Like, you know, this is fast moving, but I think it was with ThoughtWorks, it was, so, good that it was like they already had the, the relationship built, with the consultancy, the name itself. And then when you go there, the people already have the trust in you. So that made it easier to start jump start the journey there. Yeah.

ADRIANA:
That's good. Yeah. Because I mean as you said, that can be like building up that trust can be really tricky because especially when you come in as a consultancy into an organization, there's going to be the skepticism. What are they trying to do? Are they trying to like rattle, rattle things around. And then and as a consultant, you have to be so careful and not come in and say everything's crap. Yeah.

PARVEEN:
Yeah, yeah.

ADRIANA:
Otherwise...

PARVEEN:
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And and you'll feel like you're always an outsider. But anyway, so many like clients that I've worked with being I thought was I think I've never felt that it was always like be a part of the team because we always. Yeah, yeah. So that's some of the things that I think that that kind of again, this is where right, your credibility, your credibility and the trust both go so hand-in-hand that it will help, in smoother collaboration.

ADRIANA:
Yeah, absolutely. And I think there's the aspect of like the company's credibility, which helps. And then like your personal credibility helps as well. And then I'll bet then that translates quite nicely when you, you know, when when you switch jobs, having had that consulting experience of like, yeah, you come in. I mean, everyone's a problem solver, but I feel like the, the consultant is like that kind of problem solver plus plus plus. Like you're you're always kind of looking at it. You're putting the situation, holistically. Right. And I feel like coming in to an organization from a consultancy background, you probably have that extra you know, like bit of advantage where you're, you can come in, assess the situation, be sure not to tell them that their baby is ugly because so they don't get offended.

PARVEEN:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yes. It's it's more like yeah I think I see that as it's more like when you actually working for a long, long years or even if you took a year or a couple of years, you kind of get blindness So it's like when someone comes in with and they kind of bring you a fresh pair of like perspective glasses. I would say in that sense, yeah. And it's more about like evolving what you have done. So because like software development right, or quality development, DevOps, everything, it's always like it's never like once you have built something a processes or you have what some tool it's going to be forever, right? It's evolving all the time. It has to evolve all the time. It has to. We have to always innovate, whether it's a be process, whether it'll be tool or whether it be the the way we looking right ways of working. Yeah. So it's the same thing like you know new people come in and they bring their own expertise, they bring their own experience, they bring their own ideas. And and it's it might not always be that the companies might be having a lot of problems, which is why they're trying to bring the change.

But it might more like they are coming with the fresh perspective and they're coming with more, because you've been in that situation like in the same context for so long that you, you kind of like you get used to it. So you kind of sometimes miss that. So someone coming in so they kind of come with fresh perspective and come up with more, new ideas to improve. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love that, I love that. And it's funny because I'm kind of experiencing the same thing, because I, I switched jobs, in November and, and, you know, it's, so part of it is like, I'm getting to know, like the company's product, and realizing, like, all these things that it does that I didn't know it did.

ADRIANA:
And so, you know, I'm like, as I learn more stuff, I'm like, oh, my God. Tell me more about this. Tell me more about that. And trying to understand, like, I think, you know, coming in from fresh perspective, you can't help but wonder, like, okay, why is something designed this way? Have you thought about that way? And then when you. I think if you approach it like asking, asking thoughtful questions like people are so much more open to hearing your suggestions, rather than, you know, like if you came in and started accusing them. Of of... Like, “You did this wrong!”

PARVEEN:
Yeah, yeah.

ADRIANA:
Just coming in, come in and ask questions and just try to understand. And I think like that's so important.

PARVEEN:
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

ADRIANA:
Now, going back to the, the leadership thread, you know, you mentioned like it it can be really challenging. Like, in being in a leadership position, because you're, you're trying to influence the change. You're not necessarily in a position where you're doing the thing. You have to get people to do things for you, which can be really hard if if you're a very hands on person and, you know, super Type-A, likes to take things in their in their own hands. So, like, for you, how, is there anything, that you can draw from your past that prepared you for, for, for your current, experience and leadership?

PARVEEN:
Yeah. I again, going back to the consultancy experience. Right. So I when I, when we work, as a consultant, when we go on to the, client, it's always we, we have this in our head that. Okay, we are working. We are trying implementing new processes, or we are trying new, new ways to work. But I've. I used to always think that, I'm going to leave this, place, so I have to, write as much as I can. I have to share as much as I can, and I have to know. So it's more about, like, knowledge sharing all the time. And how do I make myself, like, you know, replaceable or redundant or how do you what do you call it as like. And for that you need, you just need to, create all like, you know, just keep sharing. So I used to do that, right? So that has kind of helped me in a way that, okay, there will be moments where you want to be like, oh, let me just do it by myself. Like, you know, let me just do it myself. It will be like, yeah, you know, and then I might it feels like, okay, it's more about like, how do you, how do you, coach others to do the same thing? How do you help them? How do you support them? Because it's not about, it's not about how faster can you get things done, right? It's it's about like, how do you create, many, leaders while you are working in a team? It's more about how do you, get many people, who can drive, who can, who can lead as well? It's more about that. So it's so if you keep doing, you keep getting into that zone of like, let me just get get it done, and then you will never be able to do. I think sometimes we go into that zone right. Like it feels like, oh yeah, me if I'm doing it might be faster, but then yeah, for now it might be faster. But then if that comes up in the same challenge or same problem you're trying to solve again, then you will be the only one who's going to solve it. If you're not, if you're not getting others to do that or like, you know, that's that's the thing, right? And again, I think that experience has helped me like, because as a consultant, I knew that I would I would leave this place. I would, and I'm coming here not to just solve the problem for them right now. And when I leave, they should be back in the same position. No. Right. So they have to continue with what we have implemented, they have to continue with what we have built. Otherwise then there's no point in this. If that was the case, then if that was the case and we would always be working, at one client forever, right? That not that's not the point. So you have to, create in, like, in such a way that even when you leave, those things continue. Not everything, but at least few basic things are continuing. So in that mindset, that approach is kind of helping me. And I'm like, the thing lately is really let me get it done.

ADRIANA:
Yeah. That's so clever. That's that's an excellent, excellent approach. And, you know, it's so funny because I think a lot, a lot of people here like, you know, when it comes to management to delegate, delegate, delegate. And it seems like such a simple like it's a simple piece of advice. It's so true. You absolutely have to do it. But it also means that you have to trust that your teammates will, you know, you have to trust them to do the thing. You can't. You basically can't be the helicopter parent around your teammates. Which can be really hard and sometimes. And I think it becomes especially hard if you have some people who need to be, as you said, coached, to do, to learn, to develop certain skills. So it's not just like learning how to do the thing, but also developing the skills, to be more, you know, like be more independent because like, yeah, it's really tough sometimes, like, I've had people work for me that they're just waiting for me to tell them what to do. And I'm like, I cannot just sit here and babysit you like, that is not your job to be babysat by me. And it's not my job to babysit you. Like, we, you know, like you need to be more independent. And it's really hard. Like, it's so easy when you have, like, the, the direct reports who are like, yep, I'm going to do all the things. And you're like, yeah, like my star child. Please do keep doing your awesome stuff. And but it's so hard when you have, the folks who are, you know, like, they need they need nudging. And there's like cases where, like, you can you can help them grow. And I think it's lovely when that happens. And then there are the cases where it's like, this is not a fit and you need to figure out how to deal with that as well. So stressful.

PARVEEN:
Absolutely. I think you'll get all the combinations. That idea like you get you get it like yeah you I think when you that's where like when you working I think not every like everybody's different. Everybody's skill set is different. And everybody's like their approach towards learning is different. Their approach towards career is different. So everybody is very different. And then when you get when you have to work with them, then you have to take different approaches when you're talking to them. And it's like you cannot really, you know, like I feel like you'll be surprised, like, you know, it's not about always like, you have to coach them, but sometimes it's more about, like giving them the problem so that they find the solution by themselves. So that independent might help them as well. So it's more about everybody having different needs. And how do we how do it. It takes a lot of time to understand who like whose whose working style is what and who like doing what. And for that, you need to, let them do let them see. I think that that takes a lot of time. Yes, I agree, like, you know, and then, then again, you'll end up having some people who really want to like. Yeah, as I said, babysit. Right. Like, who really want instruction. But then some people might be like, I don't need instruction, so you just give me the problem, I'll go and find the solution. And ideally so I think the different skill sets you'll get that different combination. And then maybe that's where when you're working in the company then you'll have different problems and you'll know, oh, this is the problem. So I feel like this person is really good fit to put that person in there. So I think, yeah, I think learning about the people learning about this style and you'll be surprised. I feel like many times like, you know, they they have already so much skill set that they might not even need coaching, but only just the direction and opportunities that they can grow.

ADRIANA:
Yeah, absolutely. And to feel to feel acknowledged and listened because I think, yeah, it's funny because you don't want like the micromanaging manager.

PARVEEN:
Yeah.

ADRIANA:
You also don't want the manager who's like, so hands off. You're like, please pay attention to me. Please love me. Because then that can be motivating as well, right? Because you're like, well, what am I doing this for, then?

PARVEEN:
You know. Yeah, yeah. And then that's that reminds me like yeah. And also feedback. Right. Like feedback. I'm a very feedback, person. And I think that's where like giving feedback asking for feedback. I mean, again, if you feel myself like asking what I think if people like, you're giving them feedback. And when I say feedback, it's not about just saying improve things, but it's more about whenever they have done some amazing work. Praise in public, like, you know, yeah, that motivates that motivate forward. That yeah, these few things, I think, I'm getting into these things of like, okay, I'm a person. I like taking feedback. I like asking feedback, but not everyone could be the same. So, it's about building that contract. Like, I've learned this, recently in one of the workshop that I attended about leadership is about, like you sitting and talking to each other and building that contract of like, okay, yeah, what do you expect from me? And what, like, and what do I expect from them? And how do you like communicating and like, how do you like taking feedback? How do you want me to do like, you know, it's all about that setting that boundaries and setting that, relationship contract so that it works both ways because then it doesn't become like the expectations are different then. Then that will create a lot of misunderstand. And then. Yeah.

ADRIANA:
Yeah, I that's, that's so clever having this concept of a, of a contract and that basically every, every person that you're working with will will have like a different contract because of. Yeah, different what they work with. Yeah. But yeah, that is such a, such a clever idea. And, you know, I think you mentioned also like you've, you've done some, like leadership workshops and I think that's so important as well, like, in, in one of my early, leadership roles, I got sent to, like, leadership training, and it was definitely like, it was really valuable. At first I'm like, oh, what do I need new leadership training for? But it's like, it's really valuable. They teach you like important things. Like they make you aware of things that you weren't necessarily aware of. Like, I remember we had to do like role playing on like having difficult conversations. And it's it's so hard and you have to like broach it in a way that you don't end up like hurting someone's feelings because like, ultimately, like having a difficult conversation can lead to hurt feelings, especially if the the other person's like thinking that they're doing fine and you're like, yeah.

ADRIANA:
You're not. You know, how do you communicate that effectively so that you see their perspective and vice versa?

PARVEEN:
No, absolutely. I think, I think I've, I've really learned that there's no one book or there's, there's no like one way or the other way to do leadership. It's like you have your own style. You have your own like, way like leadership, is all about like, you know, how how do you want to drive people like, you know, how do you want to how what is your style? You know, there's I feel like all these workshops help, to like, you know, like, see different perspective to learn how others think and the like again. Then just like how we mentioned. Right, like learning about conflict resolutions or learning about feedback, giving or learning about how do you delegates like all this stuff? Like, you know, and these are all it's more it's more like all load of different ingredients that you mix. It becomes its own flavor. Right? You know, whatever you mix, that's your flavor. So leadership is more I feel like, you know, personally, like in my experience, I feel like everyone has their own style, the way they own approach. There's no one way or the other way, and there's no there's no guideline or book that this is this is leadership. And everyone has to do this way. So it's more about how do you find your balance or how do you want to drive. It's more about your own style, like because people are like different different like, you know, that's what like, you know, there are introverted people, there are extroverted people. Everyone has their own personalities. And then how do they bring their authentic self into this leadership? And how do they build that and how do they help? Companies and the people I think that's that's really, a completely different way of doing it.

ADRIANA:
Yeah, yeah. And I I'm, I want to dig into that a little bit more where you mentioned like bringing your authentic self, to work because I think like as, you know, in, in a leadership position, I think it is, you know, the responsibility of the leader to create a safe work space, for, for employees, and you know, where you can. And there's nothing worse than not being able to bring your authentic self, to work. Because you you're just not going to get everything out of, you know, the people working with you. Right? Because they're not going to they're not going to feel like they, they can, you know, bring 100% like, put 100% of themselves into the work.

PARVEEN:
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I think yeah. It's just being you. Right? Your authentic self is like you being yourself, whether you are an introverted person, whether you are an extroverted person, it's you. It's your personality. I'm a very introverted person, by the way. So it's more about like you just being yourself and because how long? Like if you're trying to be someone else, I think it will drain. Like it will drain you completely. If you, if you're a person who, who is not comfortable doing certain things, it's fine. Finally, you know, there's just accept it. Everyone has their own different strengths and, different weakness, right? Like, yeah, I it's hard to say. I know, like, you know, you go through those imposter syndrome where you kind of go through in the weakness points always not the strengths, but trying the best. Right? Like, you know, I think I was. I was writing this, in my own reflection blog recently, like, where I write every year. Right. I was saying that how useful my own brag document was last year whenever I was going through these moments of like, okay, no, I'm fine, you know, it's just, yeah, it's yeah, I know I went on to that, but I think it's just being yourself, no matter what kind of personality you have, I think that kind of helps. And then. Yeah.

ADRIANA:
And what have you done, like with your own team in terms of helping them, giving them that safe space and allowing them to be their authentic selves?

PARVEEN:
Yeah, I, I hope my yeah, they, they see this, but I think, I try myself is like, try to listen to them the first thing like, like not to judge what they're saying is just to make sure that they feel that I'm not judging what they're saying. And listening is the first thing I would say, like, you know, I would listen to them and acknowledge the feelings like, okay, if they're feeling that way, it's so, so it's it's creating that space of like, you can come to me, you can reach me out and you can talk to me and you can share if whether it's like a thing about the ideas or whether you're feeling frustrated about certain things that are not working in a certain way, like being approachable, like me, being approachable is one of the way. And I think that takes a little like a lot of time, for like, people to understand that I'm approachable. Right. So I think it to like creating many instances where you have given that example that people can reach you, that you're approachable and then they can talk to you. So I think that, think that's one way, and like for me, really, I would say like never counting, like pointing out a failure maybe, or like. Yeah, yeah, it's. Not a failure, but it's about like the learnings, like, you know.

ADRIANA:
Yeah.

PARVEEN:
Something is not working this way. Like, how do we improve? What do we do? So it's about having those kind of conversations and motivating and supporting, making sure that they feel that, like they are supported enough no matter how and what they do. Is one of the. Yeah, these are the few ways of I try.

ADRIANA:
Yeah, I think you nailed it because like, you know, like two really important points. You made was being approachable. And I think that's so important. I remember, like the last time I managed, like, it took a while to kind of build up that rapport with, with, my direct reports, because if you like, how can can I be myself? So like, try to, like, be relaxed, you know, like be relaxed around them so that they feel relaxed around me and hopefully like, hopefully that that puts them at ease. And I think as you said, being approachable is so, so important. Yeah. That's great. I want to also, just quickly, talk a little bit about, you know, like your, your role, because you said, like, you're, you're doing work around, like, setting, like QA, like quality strategy. Right. So then it's another aspect of leadership where it's not just like you're not just leading, like you're not just managing your team, but you're also like influencing an entire organization. And how has that been?

PARVEEN:
Yeah. It's been great. It's been good. It's been great, actually, because, I think sometimes you need people who actually believe in quality to be able to do these things. So, I'm glad, like, everybody here, I work, everybody's like, what can we do to like you know, the quality is one of the topic that is most spoken as well. So I think that's, that's I like I feel like that's the that's half of the battle is one kind of feeling. And then it becomes more like, okay, now how do you break down into smaller things of like, how do you different things? So this is where I try to like not just focus on one thing, like, like I tried like, okay, talking about how can we, maybe do some experimentation or any kind of new, ways of approaching things, but, talking in a different way, like bring. I've also tried to create a not tried, but I've created a community for community so that, it's about giving the same talking about the same thing in a different, forums in a different way, so that, people can understand it. And it's, it also means that it's not only me talking about, quality. And in this it's the way I'm talking about, but it's more about how thought leaders outside are also, like, you know, it's the same approach. So bringing so doing those sessions, bringing that has helped us, a lot like bringing people from, you know, speakers and bringing them in and, letting them do the sessions really more relevant to what we are trying at a company. And, it kind of like it's, it's more about, again, it goes back to how do you advocate how do you talk about quality, how do you push, like in anything and everything that you do, where it is needed? And how do you keep talking about it in the right place, in the right time with the right people, and then show the changes? And it doesn't have to be very big ones, like, you know, if you have like small changes, small step every time. And once people see that, it is working for them, it is helping them. Then they will then follow that like, you know, so I think that's that's how, that's how I've been like, you know, like it's not Big Bang all at once. Let's do everything at once. It's and and it's been more about nothing to do with more innovative tools or anything like it's all about sometimes, like, it's all about, going back to the basics and, going, like, doing fundamental things help speed up. So I think I'm still like, it's, it's there's a lot to do here. Yeah. But I think it's been, it's been good. It's been good in the sense of like trying small steps over time and doing little things changes at a time. And sometimes when, things keep fast moving, then, there are challenges we have to based on the context of which, initiatives we are working on, we just have to, change our approach in certain ways. So it's more it's it's been it's been adaptable. So adaptability is another thing. Right? So it's more about, trying to take small steps and adapting to what you're doing and, showing people examples and then bringing people in. So there are multiple ways of doing, and talking about it in a different way. I think that's, that's how I've been doing here.

ADRIANA:
That's awesome. And quick follow up question. Have you has has Observability and quality entered into the conversation?

PARVEEN:
Of course. Yes. I mean, it's, I, I do talk about this in the sense is like when we talk about quality, right? Like, especially cross functional requirements is where this Observability comes in, and it's even like how it's more and more relevant, even when you actually working with, systems with so much backend, it's more backend focused. So it becomes even more the more back-end focus it is, the more visibility you need it. Right. And that's where Observability comes in. So I think it's I still like yeah. That's, that's, that's a topic I think. And I, and I do encourage people like, you know, it's not about just... same message again. It's nothing new message. But still I think it still applies the same message that it's not about just implementing the logs It's about testing them, seeing if they are meaningful. How do you check that? Because it's more easier to shift this to the left then to release it and then realize, oh, we need some more logs and go back and add more. So it's it's much, much more harder. Then it's much more easier to spend some time to do implement it and do the testing. And, you know, so these simple things I still talk about this. Yes.

ADRIANA:
Amazing. Yeah. And I this is like so great. It's such a great way of looking at it like, it. Is your instrumentation meaningful because, you know, it's it's such an easy trap to fall into where it's like, well, we're instrumenting our code. Okay. That's awesome. But if you're hitting a bunch of crap, that makes no sense.

PARVEEN:
Yeah. Yeah.

ADRIANA:
Like, it's not useful to you for troubleshooting, then what's the point?

PARVEEN:
Yes. Yeah.

ADRIANA:
Well, we're coming up on time. But before we wrap up, I was wondering if you have any parting words of wisdom that you would like to share with our audience.

PARVEEN:
Not wisdom, but it's like. Yeah, it's more like, I would say 2025. I feel like this is a this is my first 2025 podcast. It's more like, yeah, this year for me, myself is more about like, you know, how do you, be yourself, be open to your, like, you know, keep your mind open to learning, no matter at what stage or what level you are on, and be open to ask those questions in any forum. And, like, yeah, learning is constant. Like, you know, it's it's a continuous process and keep being consistent is another word that I'm trying to stick to this year. We'll see. So yeah, doing anything consistently, like sticking when I say consistently doesn't mean that you have to do it every day. But you know, when you when you do something consistently, it has a compound effect that will, that you will see later on. So for that to happen you need to do that consistently. So this is for my own self like, you know, more than for others.

I think this with my own self. So because I've, I'm saying this to myself that yes, we have to like, doing this consistently, and learning and asking for help is what I would say. And again, networking as well. Build your network like, you know, to learn learn from others like, you know, build that network where you can learn from each other and you can share with each other and, you can uplift each other as well, you know, like you need that you need that motivation. So if someone else is uplifting you, well, like I would be like, you know, that would go in my brag document and I would see that and I would feel so fulfilled. So little things help. So these these would be my few things that I would share.

ADRIANA:
I love this so much. Thank you. These are great parting words of wisdom. Well, thank you so much Parveen for geeking out with me today. Y'all don't forget to subscribe and be sure to check the show notes for additional resources and to connect with us and our guests on social media. Until next time...

PARVEEN:
Peace out and geek out. It was amazing!

ADRIANA:
Geeking out is hosted and produced by me, Adriana Villela. I also compose and perform the theme music on my trusty clarinet. Geeking out is also produced by my daughter Hannah Maxwell, who incidentally design all of the cool graphics. Be sure to follow us on all the socials by going to bento.me/geekingout