3min chapter

The Working Genius Podcast with Patrick Lencioni cover image

52. Jobs, Careers and Hiring Q&A

The Working Genius Podcast with Patrick Lencioni

CHAPTER

How to Be a Successful Job Seeker

Julie: I don't have invention as a genius, so coming up with new language is hard for me. So if you're in that position, go back to the report or we have a tool called Reviewing Your Results. It's got language around what does it look like to contribute with wonder on a team? Julie: Having a structure allows a person to talk about what they're not good at without feeling like they have a character flaw. If that is the thing you need most, then it's probably not a good fit. Okay. Let's do some questions about interviewing and hiring. How would you apply these principles to people who work hourly jobs? Would you be able to

00:00
Speaker 1
If they feel like they're going the wrong direction, is to go see the primary care doctor
Speaker 2
and ask them, do I need to see a mental health professional specifically on this one, and get feedback on that. Continuing this thread, I know you talk a lot about psychiatry 1.0, 2.0, and 3.0. And we've been in this space for a while now, where there's been an increasing amount of, while you said that not a lot of people are going to these therapists that we don't have, and there's more therapists that are needed, there's still been so much more, at least from what I've seen information, access, and stuff like that over the last, let's say 10 years specifically, than ever before, between content online, podcasts, stuff like that. Why are we in this, the position that we're in, and how do you see something like you've coined the term psychiatry 3.0? How do you see something like that, really being able to be the catalyst for changing this mental health crisis we're in right now?
Speaker 1
It's about scaling, right? It gets into that comment I said a second ago about there aren't enough therapists. There aren't enough psychopharmacologists either, right? And that's why the primary care doctors do a lot of it, is because there are enough psychiatrists that do prescribing, right? It's a scale problem, right? Where you need to be able to scale a certain number of people. So the old, kind of Freudian psychotherapy idea is you see the person once a day, every day, five days a week. And in that model, you can see eight total patients, right? In more modern psychotherapy practices, you see somebody once a week, so you can see 40 people or something like that. For med management visits, you only need to see somebody once a month for 30 minutes, so you can see like 350 people or something like that. Even with those numbers you can't get to the number you need to be able to treat. Circuit-based therapeutics don't require the doctor to be as involved. There's a prescription for the treatment and the doctor is involved at the very beginning of the therapeutic application, but after that point, you can have medical assistance, do a lot of it. Right? And so then it can be automated seeing scale up to thousands of patients. And the beauty of that is you could actually make a dent in the problem, right? If we do that sort of thing, we make a massive dent in the bigger problem. And we can't really do it. We either have to train more people where we have to develop treatments that don't require as much direct psychiatry or mental health involvement. I'm totally like agnostic to this. Specific phobia. Psychotherapy is very good for specific phobia, right? If you have a plane phobia, like flying on a plane or driving in a Fiat or whatever it is, or spiders or whatever, you can be really well treated with psychotherapy. And we should scale as many psychotherapists as we need to treat specific phobia, for instance, and I'm just making this up. Yeah, the problem ends up being if half of us are going to have a mental health diagnosis before 75 and half of us aren't therapists, you know what I mean? It doesn't, it's a comp or a third of us, or a fourth of us, or an eighth of us, or whatever it is, it's hard, right? It's hard. The numbers don't work. And so you have to come up with solutions that are more scalable. So then I've been focused on scalable solutions, where you only need one doctor for like a ton of people, and that's another way of dealing with a problem. I don't care about that. I think the problem needs to be dealt with. I don't care what the solution is. I just am a realist, right? I know like I see how the world works. And when I you can get people interested in this kind of this generation is particularly interested in mental health, and I think there will be more therapists, there probably still won't be enough therapists to handle the problems. And some people don't respond to therapy, which is the other part of it. Yeah,
Speaker 2
I'm interested to know like, you know, for me, and this is a totally anecdotal, but over the years, I've struggled at times with severe depression, severe anxiety, mild anxiety, panic disorder, mild depression, like OCD and stuff. And what I found is personally like therapy helped if I was going through like a breakup to process like my feelings around that, right? Or it helped to process parts of like my parents getting divorced or being picked on in school. But it didn't help me like get what I wanted in life. You know what I mean? Like it didn't help me actually create a better reality for myself. So I guess as your thesis with like TMS and neuromodulation is that that's like the cheat code for like hacking the brain to like get it to a place where you see more control and your ability for your life to get better. Is that what's happening versus psychotherapy and CBT and stuff like that? I mean, I think the promise psychotherapy as
Speaker 1
a generality is, and it's not like psychotherapies fault. It's like the nature of how all this goes down, right? So we are the result of like all sorts of stuff. Like our genetics are the epigenetics, our social environment, our childhood. So the idea that something can like go in and change all that like really quickly, you know, in totality, it just isn't, you know, it isn't realistic. And that's not really realistic kind of across the board for any treatment. I think that psychotherapy, particularly it's hard because you're pulling a string on one thing for an hour and it's a lot of things, right? What the cheat code is you call it, what the stimulation does is that it kind of like bypasses that and it's kind of like exogenous. Like one way I talk about the psychotherapy trainees is it's like exogenous therapy and the therapist don't like this idea. Like, wait, you know, what happens is you see people like processing information in like a really therapy style, like somebody that's gone through a lot of therapy, people process information like they just went through a bunch of therapy, right successfully. And the reason why is that they're in control, they feel more in control. So they answer stuff like they're a controlled person, they feel in control. So they make decisions like somebody that's in control and they evaluate situations like there's somebody in control. And so there's an iterative bit to it, right? We're like, you then can take a brain like that and they can go in and do more therapy and then it's going to work better, probably. I mean, that's our sense of it. It's kind of anecdotally because they're coming into it from a different place. So I could Alex seem to do a similar sort of thing and have a content component to it too. It's basically the same sort of general idea is that you kind of have to match the acuity of the problem with the acuity of the treatment, a little bit of TMS here and there, a little bit of psychotherapy, you're going to get a little bit of a change. You go full tilt on it, you're going to have full change, but it's like a big time investment. In the case of the stimulation work that we're doing, it's a 10 hour blocks for a week, every day where they're in the chair for about 90 minutes, but they're there all day. They're there for 10 hours a day for five days. Yeah, nobody drops out because those people are so severely depressed that they'll do anything, right? They'll go and they'll sit there, they'll do the whole thing. Of course, right? It's terrible for them. It's very painful. So then they're willing to do it. Same thing with the psychedelic thing. It's a couple of days where people have to be off of work or whatever.
Speaker 2
And so with that comes bigger change. This might be a bad example, but maybe the listeners or whoever's watching this will understand. It's kind of like doing like a 21 day challenge for a workout, right? And that's like your jumpstart is you're like, all right, I'm going to eliminate processed foods, I'm going to work out hard, I'm going to drink water, I'm going to sleep, and I'm going to get jump started. And that's going to hopefully motivate me to enter something more manageable. And it seems like that's kind of what you're describing is that they come to you to jumpstart my understanding this correctly.
Speaker 1
Yeah, absolutely. Now I think that's right. I mean, if you think about it like 500 years ago, people didn't have, didn't work out, right? Workout is like a modern thing, you know, like they like ran from the line or whatever, right? Like it ran from whoever was chasing them did physical activity as a result of their circumstance, you know? Some people didn't do physical activity, like the kings or whatever. And actually some of the, you know, royalties suffered some of the worst health consequences because of various factors in breeding all that stuff too. But you know, it's like one of these things where modern exercise and the way we think about it, right, where we go to the gym and we lift weights is something that actually hasn't happened for very long in human history. It's like a new, a relatively new thing. I'm on this kick and I'm going to do a TEDx talk that next week I'm on this actually, this idea that people like, they really like interpret reality from their lifetime. If you're not like a super serious student of history, if there's always been a gym since you've been born, then that's just how it is. So working your body out is like totally normal, like, but it's actually very weird in the scheme of like, like human history and life, like in the sense that most of human history, we didn't do that. We only do that in modern times. And so if you, if you kind of zoom out and you say, okay, well, doing reps on, you know, a dumbbell or whatever it is, barbell or whatever it is for this, for the purposes of getting my muscles bigger makes sense and it's linked with all these great health benefits, then why wouldn't doing a similar sort of thing with your brain make sense? It may feel weird to people hearing that because they're like, wait, this is the first time I'm hearing this is in the context of my entire life, right? Yeah, I'm 41. For me, I've heard about this a lot, obviously for 20 years, but yeah, friends of mine that are in the medical field, this is not something that they've ever heard about. So it seems very weird, right? I bet working out at a gym felt very weird when the first gold gym or whatever it is opened up to, right? This idea that you'd be going in and exercising for certain reasons. I think that's what you're going to see, right, is that there's going to be more and more of a push towards this idea of kind of stimulating the brain as a way of initially treating a lot of these psychiatric illnesses, but as a way of really thinking about how to keep the brain fit, if you will. And it makes makes a ton of sense, right? There's there's data now that TMS can help with early Alzheimer's disease. If your cognition could be better, I mean, think about it. Would you do it? If you knew you were going to get Alzheimer's, if you didn't do it, would you do it? Of course, I'd be flying to a Stanford tomorrow. That's right, right? And so this idea that we have to kind of find ways probably through neuro stimulation, but it could be through cognitive training to turn these brain regions on and work them out makes a lot of sense, similar to the way that we think about working our muscles out. And it's probably not as weird and in the scheme of things as we think about it now, and probably a lot more similar to the way we think about going to the gym.

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