In this episode of the Chad and Cheese Podcast, the boys interview Dr. Poornima Luthra, a TEDx speaker, associate professor at Copenhagen Business School, and author specializing in diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI). Dr. Luthra discusses her upcoming book, Can I Say That?, which explores the backlash against DEI initiatives, rooted in her 18 years of academic research in talent management and HR.

Key Points:

Background and Motivation: Dr. Luthra’s interest in DEI stems from her PhD research and personal experiences with social inequities as a woman of color. Her work focuses on creating fairer organizational environments.
DEI Backlash: She observes a global backlash against DEI, particularly amplified in the U.S., with ripple effects in Europe. Companies face pressure to remove DEI training and terminology, especially those with U.S. federal contracts.
Fear as a Core Issue: Dr. Luthra identifies fear as the root of resistance to DEI, manifesting in five forms: fear of change, fear of getting it wrong, fear of personal consequences, discomfort with bias, and fear of ineffective actions. These fears affect all groups, not just dominant ones.
Zero-Sum Misconception: The backlash is fueled by a zero-sum view where advancing marginalized groups is seen as diminishing others’ advantages. Dr. Luthra critiques the focus on quotas over systemic and cultural change, which perpetuates this mindset.
Diversity Paradox: Diversity alone doesn’t guarantee positive outcomes like retention or morale without equity and inclusion. Resistance to DEI can increase job dissatisfaction and insecurity, particularly for marginalized groups.
Meritocracy Myth: Dr. Luthra challenges the notion of meritocracy, noting that perceptions of merit are biased by social conditioning around gender, race, and other factors. True meritocratic systems require dismantling these biases.
Corporate Responses: While some companies abandon DEI, others, like Costco, maintain commitments, aligning with customer and employee values. Share price drops for companies retracting DEI efforts suggest market consequences.
Allyship: Dr. Luthra emphasizes allyship through introspection, curiosity, humble acknowledgment of privilege, empathetic engagement, vulnerable interactions, and courageous responsibility. Her book aims to guide everyone in overcoming fears to engage with DEI effectively.
Book Promotion: Can I Say That? is a workplace-focused guide for bridging divides and addressing DEI fears, aimed at both supporters and skeptics. It releases in May 2025 (June/July in the U.S.) and will be available on Amazon and other platforms.

The episode blends humor, critical analysis, and practical insights, urging listeners to rethink DEI approaches and commit to systemic change despite resistance.

Chapters

00:00 - Introduction to Dr. Poornima Luthra

02:31 - The Personal Journey into DEI

04:01 - Global Perspectives on DEI Backlash

05:27 - Understanding Fear in DEI Resistance

11:21 - The Zero-Sum Game of DEI

17:49 - The Impact of Resistance on Workplace Dynamics

21:10 - Meritocracy vs. DEI: A Flawed Concept

24:56 - Corporate Responses to DEI Challenges

27:37 - The Role of Allyship in DEI

31:57 - Promoting the New Book: Can I Say That?

AMA | November 2025

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